Free-will or determinism - a question.

[torridon]

But the contention is what defines the want? How does it originate? What is it's source?

It is usually fairly straightforward to see cause and effect.  I want to have a drink because I have become dehydrated. I want to punch that guy on the nose because he called my mother a whore. My dog wants to go out for a walk because he needs to relieve himself.  What is so hard about understanding this ?  Occasionally our wants may have more subtle origins, but as often as not, its pretty damn obvious why they arise.

[Alan Burns]

Dan't be silly.

Of course an "instinctive reaction" may produce a want but wants are much more general. You may, for example, want do take some course of action after carefully and thoughtfully considering your options in a complex situation.

And what is it that drives this careful and thoughtful consideration process?

[jeremyp]

And what is it that drives this careful and thoughtful consideration process?

Your brain, which is a machine honed by experience and genetics. The structure of your brain is determined by genetics and your previous experience both of which are external to you and may well be deterministic, due to the laws of physics being deterministic.

[Stranger]

And what is it that drives this careful and thoughtful consideration process?

You are making less and less sense. It's what your mind does - and no, there is no contradiction with it being deterministic. If you think there is a logical reason why it can't be deterministic (apart from your incredulity) then spit it out and stop asking dumb questions...

[Alan Burns]

You are making less and less sense. It's what your mind does - and no, there is no contradiction with it being deterministic. If you think there is a logical reason why it can't be deterministic (apart from your incredulity) then spit it out and stop asking dumb questions...

Yes, this is what the mind does.

But the mind is not a definable entity in scientific terms.  We perceive our brains to be made up of material elements which are apparently driven entirely by natural consequences to previous events, but the mind is what we perceive to be our conscious awareness and its ability to induce thoughts and interact.

[torridon]

Yes, this is what the mind does.

But the mind is not a definable entity in scientific terms.  We perceive our brains to be made up of material elements which are apparently driven entirely by natural consequences to previous events, but the mind is what we perceive to be our conscious awareness and its ability to induce thoughts and interact.

They are the same thing though.  Like two sides of the same coin, a mind is the subjective aspect of a brain.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In this thread has choice been defined and explained in deterministic frames of language and reference?

[Stranger]

But the mind is not a definable entity in scientific terms.

- sigh -

So now we're back to you claiming to know how consciousness works and everything about the laws of the physical universe. Publish your findings, claim your Nobel and stop wasting time on a forum.

Oh....... hang on...... except we've already established that you don't know those things - you just don't seem to grasp the dishonesty of making claims that you could only logically make if you did.

 

We perceive our brains to be made up of material elements which are apparently driven entirely by natural consequences to previous events, but the mind is what we perceive to be our conscious awareness and its ability to induce thoughts and interact.

And......?

[Stranger]

In this thread has choice been defined and explained in deterministic frames of language and reference?

What's "deterministic frames of language and reference" supposed to mean?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What's "deterministic frames of language and reference" supposed to mean?

How does determinism define choice?

[Stranger]

How does determinism define choice?

Why would you think there's a specific defintion associated with determinism?

choice  An act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

[Alan Burns]

Why would you think there's a specific defintion associated with determinism?

choice  An act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

But if the act is pre defined, there is no choice.

[jeremyp]

But if the act is pre defined, there is no choice.

There is a choice. Yes, if you have a perfect understanding of the state of the Universe at the time the choice is made, you could predict it.

Or put it another way: if it were possible for me to rewind the Universe to the point just before you made a choice and then run it forwards again, do you think you'd make a different choice the second time? If I kept doing it repeatedly, would you ever make a different choice?

[Nearly Sane]

But if the act is pre defined, there is no choice.

That isn't correct. There nay be a choice but there can be no other choice. It makes no difference since the idea of choice as you have trued to assert makes no sense.

[torridon]

But if the act is pre defined, there is no choice.

The act of making a choice is really a process of discerning your preference.  Would you really want the freedom to choose something other than your preference ?  That's not a freedom worth having.

[Alan Burns]

The act of making a choice is really a process of discerning your preference.  Would you really want the freedom to choose something other than your preference ?  That's not a freedom worth having.

But if you claim that my preference is entirely pre defined by past events there can be no element of freedom, and my conscious choice becomes an inevitable reaction, so no choice at all.

[Alan Burns]

That isn't correct. There may be a choice but there can be no other choice.

If there is no other choice how can it possibly be classed as a choice?

[Stranger]

But if you claim that my preference is entirely pre defined by past events there can be no element of freedom, and my conscious choice becomes an inevitable reaction, so no choice at all.

If there is no other choice how can it possibly be classed as a choice?

You cannot just redefine the language to suit your superstition (it's another example of your apparent dishonesty). We absolutely do make choices - even if they are deterministic.

There is also the fact that you are not offering any logical alternative. You just post endless meaningless mantras about the "conscious will of the human soul" and such like, and you won't face up to the logic of the situation that to the extent something is not predetermined (happens for reasons), it is random (happens for no reason).

[wigginhall]

I like torridon's idea of preference, as clearly they are (usually) determined.   In fact, the idea of a non-determined preference seems impossible.  AB seems to float around in a world where choices are neither determined nor random, without specifying what this means, except via the nebulous word 'free'.   So he is in a hall of mirrors, or a vicious circle. 

But this is presumably because he is starting with his desired conclusion - he wants to crowbar God into the equation, and he thinks he can do this via free will.   We are free,  because God wants us to be.   But what is this freedom?

[torridon]

But if you claim that my preference is entirely pre defined by past events there can be no element of freedom, and my conscious choice becomes an inevitable reaction, so no choice at all.

Yes when we weigh up our options, we are always looking to discern the best option available to us and the option we choose reflects what we think best suits our purpose at that moment.  I never weigh up my options trying to figure out the worst one.  Different people make different choices, this is because we weigh our options against an internal set of values that is personal to us. These personal values develop within us over time, we don't 'choose' them; if we could 'choose' what values to have how could we do that apart from by having another internal set of values to weigh up our internal set of values from ? Our values, preferences, fears and hopes develop within us over time, and this happens at broad scales, and also at the minutest scales.

I posted up a longer version of this in #113 if you are interested. 

[Alan Burns]

You cannot just redefine the language to suit your superstition (it's another example of your apparent dishonesty). We absolutely do make choices - even if they are deterministic.

There is also the fact that you are not offering any logical alternative. You just post endless meaningless mantras about the "conscious will of the human soul" and such like, and you won't face up to the logic of the situation that to the extent something is not predetermined (happens for reasons), it is random (happens for no reason).

Are you confusing decisions with choices?
Computers can be programmed to make logical decisions, but these are not the same as conscious choices.

[Alan Burns]

Yes when we weigh up our options, we are always looking to discern the best option ...

But the processes of weighing up and discerning are not automatic - they are consciously driven.

[Alan Burns]

I like torridon's idea of preference, as clearly they are (usually) determined.   In fact, the idea of a non-determined preference seems impossible.  AB seems to float around in a world where choices are neither determined nor random, without specifying what this means, except via the nebulous word 'free'.   So he is in a hall of mirrors, or a vicious circle. 

But this is presumably because he is starting with his desired conclusion - he wants to crowbar God into the equation, and he thinks he can do this via free will.   We are free,  because God wants us to be.   But what is this freedom?

Freedom is simply the ability to consciously choose between two or more feasible options without being shackled by the chains of uncontrollable, pre determined chains of cause and effect events.

[Nearly Sane]

Freedom is simply the ability to consciously choose between two or more feasible options without being shackled by the chains of uncontrollable, pre determined chains of cause and effect events.

And what reason would a choice be made except determined, random or a combination of both? You keep not answering that.

[Stranger]

You cannot just redefine the language to suit your superstition (it's another example of your apparent dishonesty). We absolutely do make choices - even if they are deterministic.

There is also the fact that you are not offering any logical alternative. You just post endless meaningless mantras about the "conscious will of the human soul" and such like, and you won't face up to the logic of the situation that to the extent something is not predetermined (happens for reasons), it is random (happens for no reason).

Are you confusing decisions with choices?
Computers can be programmed to make logical decisions, but these are not the same as conscious choices.

Once again, you are trying to dishonestly redefine the language. Choice just means selecting an option - a chess computer's job is to choose good chess moves.

However, that is a side issue that just gave you an excuse to avoid the main point about you having no logical alternative to determinism.