Free-will or determinism - a question.

[Stranger]

Freedom is simply the ability to consciously choose between two or more feasible options without being shackled by the chains of uncontrollable, pre determined chains of cause and effect events.

Progress! For once you didn't add 'physical' or 'material'.

Still just as self-contradictory though - why won't you face up to the logic?

[Alan Burns]

And what reason would a choice be made except determined, random or a combination of both? You keep not answering that.

Determined by your conscious will, for whatever reason you choose.

[Alan Burns]

Progress! For once you didn't add 'physical' or 'material'.

Still just as self-contradictory though - why won't you face up to the logic?

Because the logical path you consciously choose to follow is not the same logical path which I and many others believe leads to the truth

[Nearly Sane]

Determined by your conscious will, for whatever reason you choose.

and again you ignored the question.

[torridon]

Because the logical path you consciously choose to follow is not the same logical path which I and many others believe leads to the truth

So we all make different choices, why do you think that is ?  Faced with the same fork in the road, I might choose to go left, whereas you might choose to go right.  If our choices are not random, then there must be a determining factor that sways us one way or the other.  It is impossible to make a choice that is both non-random and non-determined, it has to be one or the other

[Stranger]

Because the logical path you consciously choose to follow is not the same logical path which I and many others believe leads to the truth

If you have a logical 'path' (argument) Alan - post it. Alternatively, you could provide a counterargument to the one I and others have put forward and leave the question open for your guesswork.

If you can do neither (and you have consistently run away from the challenge to date), then claiming that you have a different 'logical path' is simply untrue.

If you're going to ignore logic and just have blind faith despite the contradiction, then have the courage to admit it.

[Stranger]

Determined by your conscious will, for whatever reason you choose.

And how does your conscious will choose the reason? For other reasons (meta-reasons) or randomly? You have to end up at random or determined by some reasons or you have an infinite regress of reasons.

[Alan Burns]

If you have a logical 'path' (argument) Alan - post it. Alternatively, you could provide a counterargument to the one I and others have put forward and leave the question open for your guesswork.

If you can do neither (and you have consistently run away from the challenge to date), then claiming that you have a different 'logical path' is simply untrue.

If you're going to ignore logic and just have blind faith despite the contradiction, then have the courage to admit it.

You only need to investigate determinism on the internet to find out there are several different versions on offer, each with their own different logical justification.  You seem to have adopted the compatibilist version, but there is cultural determinism, hard determinism (which denies any form of choice) and logical determinism.  Also there is adequate determinism, based on statistical probabilities.  And you will find yet more variations and logical views on the subject of human free will.

What I find strange in your take on the subject is your assumption that any spiritually determined action is subject to the same rules as pre determined physical actions.  You can't make this assumption without knowing how spiritual determinism works, and in particular whether it is determined in real time by an act of will rather than pre determined by background logical processes.

[torridon]

What I find strange in your take on the subject is your assumption that any spiritually determined action is subject to the same rules as pre determined physical actions.  You can't make this assumption without knowing how spiritual determinism works, and in particular whether it is determined in real time by an act of will rather than pre determined by background logical processes.

And what determines our will ?

Does it spring out of nowhere, in which case it is random, or do our desires and intentions result from something ?

It has to be one or the other.

[Alan Burns]

And what determines our will ?

Whatever your soul wants at the time it actions it.

Does it spring out of nowhere, in which case it is random, or do our desires and intentions result from something ?

It has to be one or the other.

Not random
Not pre determined
But determined

[Nearly Sane]

Whatever your soul wants at the time it actions it.Not random
Not pre determined
But determined

I see you ignored the question - AGAIN.

[Alan Burns]

I see you ignored the question - AGAIN.

I chose to answer it in the most honest, truthful way I can - determined by my God given freedom to choose.

[Nearly Sane]

I chose to answer it in the most honest, truthful way I can - determined by my God given freedom to choose.

So the most honest way you have to answer a question is to ignore it. You and your god were it to exist have a definition of honesty that I find dishonest.

[torridon]

Whatever your soul wants at the time it actions it.

And what determines what your soul wants at the time it actions it ?

if it is not random then it must result from something.

if it is not a consequence of something then it must be random.

[Stranger]

You only need to investigate determinism on the internet to find out there are several different versions on offer, each with their own different logical justification.  You seem to have adopted the compatibilist version, but there is cultural determinism, hard determinism (which denies any form of choice) and logical determinism.  Also there is adequate determinism, based on statistical probabilities.  And you will find yet more variations and logical views on the subject of human free will.

Looks a lot like a smokescreen as several of these are simply irrelevant. But anyway, which of these do you think relevant to this debate and which are you presenting as your logical 'path'?

What I find strange in your take on the subject is your assumption that any spiritually determined action is subject to the same rules as pre determined physical actions.  You can't make this assumption without knowing how spiritual determinism works, and in particular whether it is determined in real time by an act of will rather than pre determined by background logical processes.

More empty words and a total failure to address the logic I've outlined multiple times. I find it increasingly hard to believe that you are being honest. This looks more and more like a strategy that just ignores the point long enough that you can get away with just repeating your empty assertions again.

Once again - things (including choices) happen for reasons. To the extent they are not determined by those reasons, they are determined by no reason - and determined by no reason means random.

There is no assumption about specific rules - just plain, simple logic.

Whatever your soul wants at the time it actions it.

What determines what the soul wants?

Not random
Not pre determined
But determined

That's self-contradictory.

[Stranger]

I chose to answer it in the most honest, truthful way I can - determined by my God given freedom to choose.

Which just means that you are ignoring the logic of the situation and relying on blind faith despite the inherent contradiction. Why not just admit it?

[Alan Burns]

Which just means that you are ignoring the logic of the situation and relying on blind faith despite the inherent contradiction. Why not just admit it?

It is not a contradiction.
It reflects the reality I perceive of what I and other human beings can do, which is to use their God given freedom to choose their own destiny.

[Stranger]

It is not a contradiction.

So what part of this do you think is wrong:

Things (including choices) happen for reasons. To the extent they are not determined by those reasons, they are determined by no reason - and determined by no reason means random...?

[torridon]

It is not a contradiction.
It reflects the reality I perceive of what I and other human beings can do, which is to use their God given freedom to choose their own destiny.

It doesn't reflect my reality.  I recognise that there are always precursor reasons why I want the things that I want.

[Alan Burns]

So what part of this do you think is wrong:

Things (including choices) happen for reasons. To the extent they are not determined by those reasons, they are determined by no reason - and determined by no reason means random...?

Determined by the conscious will of my human soul, which will I continue to use to witness to the truth and power of our spiritual nature.
Why can't you understand what I mean by this?

[torridon]

Determined by the conscious will of my human soul, which will I continue to use to witness to the truth and power of our spiritual nature.
Why can't you understand what I mean by this?

Because you are not explaining the origin or nature of that will. Continued avoidance on your part

[Alan Burns]

Because you are not explaining the origin or nature of that will. Continued avoidance on your part

It originates in the conscious will of my human soul, and the most important thing is I can demonstrably control it.

The only alternative is to presume that everything I do, or will ever do, is entirely pre determined by past events.  If it is not, then there is something which has the power to intervene in order to carry out my conscious will.  That something I believe to be the human soul.

[torridon]

It originates in the conscious will of my human soul, and the most important thing is I can demonstrably control it.

The only alternative is to presume that everything I do, or will ever do, is entirely pre determined by past events.  If it is not, then there is something which has the power to intervene in order to carry out my conscious will.  That something I believe to be the human soul.

Avoidance avoidance avoidance.

For three years now all you've been doing is repeating that the origin of your conscious will lies in your conscious will, which is patent nonsense.

Things do not originate in themselves. You are going round in circles.

[Stranger]

So what part of this do you think is wrong:

Things (including choices) happen for reasons. To the extent they are not determined by those reasons, they are determined by no reason - and determined by no reason means random...?

Determined by the conscious will of my human soul, which will I continue to use to witness to the truth and power of our spiritual nature.

Once again running away from the question. What you are actually bearing witness to is your lack of courage to face the basic logical question.

Why can't you understand what I mean by this?

It's not that I don't understand it, it's that it isn't an answer to the question of how we make 'free choices'. It's just avoidance - you are telling us (without any justification) what you think makes choices, not how it makes choices.

[Stranger]

It originates in the conscious will of my human soul, and the most important thing is I can demonstrably control it.

Doing what you want doesn't demonstrate anything significant at all. That ability is completely consistent with:

...everything I do, or will ever do, is entirely pre determined by past events.

Why not have the courage to face the logic or admit that you don't care about it?