Driving Instructors

[Robbie]

Exactly, that was suggested a few posts back. It isn't always sleazy. It is sleazy if a person is bombarded with suggestive talk in a situation where she is a captive audience.

[jeremyp]

Did you understand my post? I suspect not.

The young woman was trying to influence the Driving Examiner. He did his job properly. The young woman tried to influence him to do otherwise.

Now do you understand?

I have to admit I don't understand your point. Clearly it was wrong for the woman in your story to try to exploit sex to pass her driving test. Are you trying to claim that, because she did something she shouldn't have, it's completely OK for a driving instructor in an unrelated incident to do something unprofessional?

[Harrowby Hall]

Are you trying to claim that, because she did something she shouldn't have, it's completely OK for a driving instructor in an unrelated incident to do something unprofessional?

Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.

This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes.   

[Nearly Sane]

Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.

This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes.   

Then what relevance has it to the question of how driving instructors should behave as regards 17 year olds they teach which was what HWB raised this in response to?

[Rhiannon]

Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.

This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes.   

We only have HWB’s interpretation of the girl’s words. It’s the kind of lame joke that might be made to deal with disappointment on failing a driving test, or it could be a genuine comment. We don’t know. Given HWB’s prejudice against women I wouldn’t bet either way.

This doesn’t change the fact that people of both genders use sex to manipulate and exploit. But the issue with driving instructors is specifically about warning older people not to exploit the young and inexperienced - which HWB’s ‘young woman’ would have been at the time of his story.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

We only have HWB’s interpretation of the girl’s words. It’s the kind of lame joke that might be made to deal with disappointment on failing a driving test, or it could be a genuine comment. We don’t know. Given HWB’s prejudice against women I wouldn’t bet either way.

This doesn’t change the fact that people of both genders use sex to manipulate and exploit. But the issue with driving instructors is specifically about warning older people not to exploit the young and inexperienced - which HWB’s ‘young woman’ would have been at the time of his story.

That’s not a one way street either. I have known 17 year olds who are capable of and have exploited older people.

I have been in a position where I could have exploited an older person if I was that way inclined because I was aware that they thought they had a chance with me if they could charm me enough with flattery and gifts. I know certain friends/ acquaintances of mine at school who would have and they used to joke about how to manipulate men - but there were also plenty of girls who would have been revolted at the idea. Some young women have predatory instincts and at school this was seen by the girls who did it as women behaving like men and being strong and going after what they wanted rather than being weak. But that was the time of Dynasty and shoulder pads and railing against double-standards.

I think that was all HWB was trying to say. I think he gets a bit fed up with generalisations about men and women and tries to redress the balance in a not very nuanced way - but maybe he also gets judged unduly harshly for being a man being blunt about some women.

I disagree with his opinion that a driving instructor should be able to have a consensual relationship with a 17 year old pupil - just safer to not go there even if a pupil is interested  - other pupils should not have to run the risk that their instructor thinks it’s ok to test the waters by flirting with them.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I have to admit I don't understand your point. Clearly it was wrong for the woman in your story to try to exploit sex to pass her driving test. Are you trying to claim that, because she did something she shouldn't have, it's completely OK for a driving instructor in an unrelated incident to do something unprofessional?

Not at all, that post was a response to another post which asked a different question. This thread was intended to be a discussion about whether it was desirable, or necessary to warn driving instructors not to have a consensual relationship with a seventeen year old pupil. Nothing more than that, but as the discussion has proceeded, other elements have been introduced.

[Robbie]

A bit of light relief:-

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074343/

I haven't seen it but remember the film came out when I was at school & then some girls bought the book and circulated it, which I did read. It was quite funny & naughty at the time.

[jeremyp]

Of course he is not. All that he is saying is that sexual exploitation is not a one-way street.

This is obvious to anyone who has not deafened themselves by continuously grinding axes.   

Yes,, but so what? It looked very much like a tu quoque to me.

[Harrowby Hall]

I didn't consider it to be anything close to a tu quoque - merely a humourous aside in a thread which lost its way almost from the start.

Driving instruction is a commercial service activity - like a shopkeeper selling  groceries, like a gardener digging gardens, like a decorator painting ceilings. It is an activity governed by the law of contract. The relationship between instructor and learner is that of seller and buyer. To compare it to that of teacher and student is to misrepresent the nature of the relationship - it is essentially a contractual relationship between contracting adults. Minors can make contracts for necessities - it may be that someone 17 years of age could argue that learning to drive is a necessity, and it must often be the case that a young learner does reach the age of 18 before passing a driving test.

A driving instructor is not in loco parentis.

It could be that a young woman of 17 or 18 and a male driving instructor of 23 or 24 find each other attractive and wish to further explore this attraction. Should this be forbidden by law? What purpose would be served by this? If he were, say, a hairdresser - performing a personal service - should the same interdiction apply? What if it is the young woman who finds the instructor attractive and then makes the first move?

Should there be unwanted activity on the part of the driving instructor, the criminal law is available to deal with this. The learner could treat the contract as broken and walk away from it. I do not see any reason to codify the relationship - this would be the work of an intrusive nanny state.

[Rhiannon]

Seventeen year olds may very well be aware of how to use their sexuality; they rarely have the maturity to understand the implications of what that might be.

I take your point, HH, about a girl in her late teens being attracted to a single driving instructor a few years older. Another scenario of course is a young woman falling for a married instructor some twenty years her senior. Being together in a car gives ample opportunity for grooming someone and being a driving instructor paves the way for predators to groom the vulnerable - boys and girls - and then say that it’s ok because the sex is consensual.

[Harrowby Hall]

Being together in a car gives ample opportunity for grooming someone and being a driving instructor paves the way for predators to groom the vulnerable - boys and girls - and then say that it’s ok because the sex is consensual.

It is my observation that the majority of driving lessons begin and end outside the dwelling of the learner. The duration of the lesson is usually known. Others in the house know when to expect the lesson to end and can judge the composure - or otherwise - of the learner at the end of the lesson.

Now, can you tell me the incidence of grooming behaviour carried out during driving lessons? Is it a significant risk? Or is this just another step along the road to demonising all men just because they are men?

[Rhiannon]

It is my observation that the majority of driving lessons begin and end outside the dwelling of the learner. The duration of the lesson is usually known. Others in the house know when to expect the lesson to end and can judge the composure - or otherwise - of the learner at the end of the lesson.

Now, can you tell me the incidence of grooming behaviour carried out during driving lessons? Is it a significant risk? Or is this just another step along the road to demonising all men just because they are men?

Justify your statement that I am ‘demonising all men’ or retract it.

[Nearly Sane]

Justify your statement that I am ‘demonising all men’ or retract it.

HH might be saying that you are mistaken in the estimate of risk, tjough given that hasn't been an establishment by him of what 'significant risk' is it's hard to know what the claim is.


It does however seem to me that he's based it on a 'significant' false dichotomy that either you show the incidence and significance or accept that yph are demonizing all men for the sake of it. I think there is an odd reaction from some men that the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault of women is some how an indication that that prevalence needs to be assumed as the behaviour of the same percentage of men. It seems to accuzse women for speaking out of some form of calumny of truth.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Seventeen year olds may very well be aware of how to use their sexuality; they rarely have the maturity to understand the implications of what that might be.

I don’t understand what that means. Can you please be more specific? What implications do 17 year olds not understand, compared to adults about being attracted to someone older who can add value to their life and acting on that attraction?

[Rhiannon]

HH might be saying that you are mistaken in the estimate of risk, tjough given that hasn't been an establishment by him of what 'significant risk' is it's hard to know what the claim is.


It does however seem to me that he's based it on a 'significant' false dichotomy that either you show the incidence and significance or accept that yph are demonizing all men for the sake of it. I think there is an odd reaction from some men that the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault of women is some how an indication that that prevalence needs to be assumed as the behaviour of the same percentage of men. It seems to accuzse women for speaking out of some form of calumny of truth.

I’m not sure why I need to quantify risk; all I have done is explain how predators can exploit this particular form of employment. I’m not even sure that I agree that the state should intervene here, but I can see the thinking behind it. Maybe a better bet would be a code of conduct. I genuinely don’t know.

I’m also not sure why HH thinks I’m ‘demonising all men’ when he doesn’t even know me. I have encountered men who undoubtedly have a demonic side. But I don’t see why I should have to qualify every negative statement I make about the behaviour of some men, about my rape or domestic abuse with ‘of course most men are completely lovely’, as if by calling out some men I’m insulting an entire sex.

[Nearly Sane]

Yep, agree. I think a code of conduct makes more sense here as well. Also as ever there is a forgetfulness about this applying to both sexes in all circumstances.

[Rhiannon]

Yep, agree. I think a code of conduct makes more sense here as well. Also as ever there is a forgetfulness about this applying to both sexes in all circumstances.

Absolutely. Young men need protecting too, and women can predate. There’s no suggestion of this only applying to male instructors, is there?

[Nearly Sane]

Absolutely. Young men need protecting too, and women can predate. There’s no suggestion of this only applying to male instructors, is there?

Not that I've seen. Doesn't work that way with teaching.

[Rhiannon]

I don’t understand what that means. Can you please be more specific? What implications do 17 year olds not understand, compared to adults about being attracted to someone older who can add value to their life and acting on that attraction?

This came to mind.

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a9949676/schoolgirl-flees-to-france-with-teacher-2017-update/

And yes, I know she was 15 and not 17, but that’s not a huge difference. Some young people understand how to use sex and attraction without distinguishing between infatuation and something lasting, let alone considering the implications for others - older people often have spouses, kids.

I had a couple of flings with older men back in my teens and they were definitely infatuations, fun and interesting and clearly entered into but I didn’t consider anything beyond the moment.

Hell, it’s hard enough to get this right for people our age, but at least I think we are clear eyed enough to see that chemistry isn’t enough for a relationship.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes some adults have messy relationships with married men that damage the lives of the people around them. And yes I agree that in your teens and twenties, and in many cases older than that, some people can become easily infatuated and it takes over your brain. So yes any relationship is dangerous because of that risk -most  people presumably don’t plan to become infatuated and out of control.

The drama referred to in the Cosmo article was due to her being below the age of consent and a teacher abusing their position of authority.

I don’t think a driving instructor has a position of authority. Given we can’t generalise about the maturity of 17 year olds having a legal, consensual relationship with people teaching them stuff - I like the code of conduct idea. My daughter is about to be 18 and is being tutored for her Chemistry A’Level. Her tutor is young - i don’t see it as abusing his position if she liked him and he felt the same way and they acted on it. I would be against a relationship but i’m not naive about the risk of one developing.

I’m squeamish about large age gaps when one party is 17 but i’ve also been in the position where I have liked someone about 15 or 16 years older than me when I was 17 and I can’t say I would have been exploited if I had acted on my feelings and found they were reciprocated - based on my feelings at 19 where I did act on my feelings - it would have felt like a brief fling that I learned I didn’t want to repeat.

[jeremyp]

Driving instruction is a commercial service activity - like a shopkeeper selling  groceries, like a gardener digging gardens, like a decorator painting ceilings. It is an activity governed by the law of contract. The relationship between instructor and learner is that of seller and buyer. To compare it to that of teacher and student is to misrepresent the nature of the relationship

A seller- buyer relationship and a teacher - student relationship are not mutually exclusive. University students buy their courses off the University. They are also, as a rule, over 18 and yet Universities tend to ban relationships between lecturers and students.

it is essentially a contractual relationship between contracting adults.

Well my work involves having contractual relationships with other adults. I would consider it somewhat unprofessional to engage in a sexual relationship with an employee of one of my customers. I admit though that it probably wouldn't result in me getting fired.