Author Topic: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''  (Read 1870 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« on: February 19, 2018, 11:09:00 AM »
Government have announced their latest ''Looking into it'' with a review on higher education.

Nearly Sane

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 11:22:14 AM »

Gonnagle

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2018, 12:11:06 PM »
Dear Vlad,

Jeremy Vine is about to have a wee discussion on that very subject.

Gonnagle.
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Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

Aruntraveller

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2018, 09:03:26 AM »
I find it quite astonishing that in the various puff pieces on the news about this, that the Beeb and others seem quite unaware of May proclaiming that tuition fees are amongst the highest in the world in a slightly surprised tone is a tad disingenuous.

You fucking introduced it. You bastard useless politician. Its your fault. Are you suffering from amnesia?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2018, 09:19:47 AM »
Ever since Kenneth Baker realised that it could be manipulated for purely political ends, education has been in turmoil.

By deciding that 50% of school leavers should have a university education, the Blair government created a situation in Higher Education that has become more and more unmanageable. My own view is that by encouraging young people to stay in education, the unemployment statistics became more favourable.

Since the end of WW2 the growth of the HE sector in the UK had been gradual and organic. The university colleges, providing London University degrees, became full universities (the "redbricks"), technological universities (eg Aston, Brunel) were established, regional colleges of technology evolved into polytechnics (but were not permitted to award their own degrees - students received them from a QUANGO - the CNAA).

Gradual and organic until 1992.

Polys served a very useful purpose - they demonstrated that technical education could be every bit as fulfilling and demanding - and a bloody sight more useful - as studying dead Mediterranean languages at Oxford - and wanted their own degree awarding powers.

In 1992 they were transformed into full universities - but many found themselves overshadowed by older universities in the same town, although some have since achieved a similar status to the older, established, university (eg Nottingham Trent University and Nottingham University).  The 1992 Act which transformed the Polys also opened the floodgates for other educational establishments to seek university status - there are now about 160 institutions with university status. I spent nearly a quarter of a century working in an institution which, when I joined, was an FE college (the "Tech") and when I left was a university.

To finance this recent expansion, both Labour and Conservative governments had a wonderful, revolutionary wheeze - charge the students for their education. In a stroke, students ceased to be students - they became customers and started insisting as being treated as such. A further unforeseen consequence was that university managers suddenly saw themselves as operating in a commercial world - and, for some, it went to their heads. If the MD of a company with a turnover of £250 million can pay himself megabucks, said some Vice Chancellors, why can't I?

So, says the lacklustre, out-of-touch, Brexit obsessed, minority, directionless, lame-duck government whose existence now blesses the United Kingdom, we must "be doing something about it".

The real, tangible, manifest skill possessed by the administration of Theresa May is that of screwing things up - let it do its best.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 08:49:56 AM by Harrowby Hall »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2018, 09:29:38 AM »
Chalk and talk subjects are cheaper.
Grammar schools and Public schools majored in chalk and talk and sport.
But there is technical talent out their.
But the teaching of technical subjects is expensive and to preserve the delusions of the Thatcherite arrivista
everybody should have a near grammar school curriculum which holds, little scope for technical talent or ambition so there are inferior personal outcomes.
people now look up to those who succeed at this game.
Step forward Gove to perpetuate this and put the final nail in the coffin of technical education and JRM who is the epitome of the kind of polish which comes out of a pure form of the educational model school.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 09:32:25 AM »
Karma applaud, Vlad.

You know what it means ...  8)
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Nearly Sane

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2018, 09:37:06 AM »
I find it quite astonishing that in the various puff pieces on the news about this, that the Beeb and others seem quite unaware of May proclaiming that tuition fees are amongst the highest in the world in a slightly surprised tone is a tad disingenuous.

You fucking introduced it. You bastard useless politician. Its your fault. Are you suffering from amnesia?
Yes, I saw Willetts shaking his head about how a system he was in part responsible for seemed to have just happened somehow beyond his understabding

Rhiannon

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2018, 10:16:37 AM »
To be fair I don't think that using education for political gain started with Baker.

Nearly Sane

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »
To be fair I don't think that using education for political gain started with Baker.
  Yes, and I'm not clear that it is in itself a bad thing. Surely the best political gain you can make from education is policies that people think work.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 12:15:42 PM »
To be fair I don't think that using education for political gain started with Baker.

What Baker found was that he could mess with and dictate curriculum.
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jeremyp

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2018, 11:49:28 PM »

Polys served a very useful purpose - they demonstrated that technical education could be every bit as fulfilling and demanding - and a bloody sight more useful - as studying dead Mediterranean languages at Oxford - and wanted their own degree awarding powers.
They don't just have courses on dead Mediterranean languages at Oxford University.

Anyway, the problem with the system pre-1992 was that there was a certain amount of snobbery associated with having a polytechnic qualification. They were seen as not as good as a "proper" University degree. In many cases, that snobbery was completely unfounded. When I was looking at which university to go to, I was told that the best computer science degree in the country was to be found at Hatfield Polytechnic (now Hertfordshire University). I ignored the advice of course and ended up at York.

On the whole, allowing the polys to call themselves universities was a good move to remove the stigma but, unfortunately, some of the further education colleges that now call themselves universities are not worthy of the name. Bristol now has two universities, Bristol University and the the University of West of England. I interview graduates from both for jobs with my company and I have to say the difference in quality of the courses is quite obvious. The UWE course in computer science is clearly incredibly superficial. In fact, when I asked one candidate about his final year project and what things he had done over and above the project remit he told me that the lecturer had forbidden going beyond the brief. This I find incredible: a university lecturer discouraging students from self motivated learning. That's not the university ethos.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2018, 11:34:25 AM »
They don't just have courses on dead Mediterranean languages at Oxford University.

I did not say that they did.

Quote
Anyway, the problem with the system pre-1992 was that there was a certain amount of snobbery associated with having a polytechnic qualification. They were seen as not as good as a "proper" University degree. In many cases, that snobbery was completely unfounded. When I was looking at which university to go to, I was told that the best computer science degree in the country was to be found at Hatfield Polytechnic (now Hertfordshire University). I ignored the advice of course and ended up at York.

So what?

Quote
On the whole, allowing the polys to call themselves universities was a good move to remove the stigma but, unfortunately, some of the further education colleges that now call themselves universities are not worthy of the name. Bristol now has two universities, Bristol University and the the University of West of England. I interview graduates from both for jobs with my company and I have to say the difference in quality of the courses is quite obvious. The UWE course in computer science is clearly incredibly superficial. In fact, when I asked one candidate about his final year project and what things he had done over and above the project remit he told me that the lecturer had forbidden going beyond the brief. This I find incredible: a university lecturer discouraging students from self motivated learning. That's not the university ethos.

So, one swallow a summer makes ...
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Walter

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Re: ''Review.'' the new ''doing something about it.''
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2018, 02:26:17 PM »
They don't just have courses on dead Mediterranean languages at Oxford University.

Anyway, the problem with the system pre-1992 was that there was a certain amount of snobbery associated with having a polytechnic qualification. They were seen as not as good as a "proper" University degree. In many cases, that snobbery was completely unfounded. When I was looking at which university to go to, I was told that the best computer science degree in the country was to be found at Hatfield Polytechnic (now Hertfordshire University). I ignored the advice of course and ended up at York.

On the whole, allowing the polys to call themselves universities was a good move to remove the stigma but, unfortunately, some of the further education colleges that now call themselves universities are not worthy of the name. Bristol now has two universities, Bristol University and the the University of West of England. I interview graduates from both for jobs with my company and I have to say the difference in quality of the courses is quite obvious. The UWE course in computer science is clearly incredibly superficial. In fact, when I asked one candidate about his final year project and what things he had done over and above the project remit he told me that the lecturer had forbidden going beyond the brief. This I find incredible: a university lecturer discouraging students from self motivated learning. That's not the university ethos.
the poly I went to was an upgraded community swimming pool  ;)

I think it is now known as the university of Bath