Author Topic: Billy Graham has died  (Read 14146 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2018, 11:29:25 AM »
By way of a coda, you'll also find Anchs that when his errors are explained he'll never, ever address the correction but will instead just launch into something else (also usually a mistake of some sort) as if the correction hadn't been made. He won't for example say here something like, "Ah yes, now I see where I went wrong when I accused Gordon of an ad pop and I'll do my best not to make the same mistake in future" or some such. It just won't happen. What's very likely to happen though is that when someone mentions numbers in a future post he'll immediately reach again for the ad pop accusation with no grasp whatever of what it actually entails.

There's a word for this kind of thing that we're not allowed to use here, so I find now that ignoring this behaviour is the best option.     
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 11:33:31 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2018, 12:29:50 PM »
Not sure how that's a defence of Vlad stating the use of the ad populum when it wasn't used. I think rather you are disagreeing with Gordon's rating of the mission as a failure and since that is based on the figures of people overall becoming less religious in Scotland, not sure where the statements above would address that,


I did say "wee". And stats lie - as do censuses.
After all, I put "None of your business" on the religion questions.....and it isn't, after all.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2018, 01:05:11 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
I did say "wee". And stats lie - as do censuses.
After all, I put "None of your business" on the religion questions.....and it isn't, after all.

But the point is that it’s not a defence at all (ie, “wee” or otherwise). Vlad’s accusation of an ad pop rested entirely on his misunderstanding of the term – what the stats happen to be is neither here nor there for this purpose, for the reasons I explained.

You'll also note by the way that, as I also explained, he hasn't bother to acknowledge his error. 'twas ever thus. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 01:07:23 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #128 on: February 23, 2018, 01:58:38 PM »
I don't think Billy could have been described as an active world evangelist for the last decades of his life.
Just like Richard Dawkins is past his heyday. We go on and get old. Both though will be remembered for being evangelical.

From Dawkins heyday.

https://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2008/08/dawkins-evangelical-science

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #129 on: February 23, 2018, 02:14:15 PM »
I don't think Billy could have been described as an active world evangelist for the last decades of his life.
Just like Richard Dawkins is past his heyday. We go on and get old. Both though will be remembered for being evangelical.

From Dawkins heyday.

https://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2008/08/dawkins-evangelical-science


Wow, describing "the Dork" as "evangelical" is mangling the already bastardised English language.
There is nothing of the euangelion in him.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2018, 02:21:34 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
Wow, describing "the Dork" as "evangelical" is mangling the already bastardised English language.
There is nothing of the euangelion in him.

I'm fairly sure he knows this, but posting palpable nonsense of this sort seems to amuse him for some reason. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2018, 05:38:32 PM »
Moderator posts on word use have been split and put into Mind Your Language on the Literature board. Please stay on topic and again this post will be removed
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 05:52:37 PM by Nearly Sane »

SteveH

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2018, 09:32:25 AM »


A wee defence of Vlad in the numbers thing....
How many of those who went forward remained Christian afterward?
We don't know, pure and simple.
Many went to independent evangelical or pentecostal churches, which simply don't return statistics, either to the BGEA or the government, for that matter.
Some would record income if they are a registered charity or pay a pastor: many operate without a full time pastor, and have no charitable status and therefire slip under the radar.
Actually, we do have some idea. Surveys have suggested that when Billy G. converted someone, they stayed converted.
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Walter

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #133 on: February 24, 2018, 09:58:57 AM »
Actually, we do have some idea. Surveys have suggested that when Billy G. converted someone, they stayed converted.
please quote your source.

''surveys have suggested ''    meaningless bollox !

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2018, 09:59:02 AM »
Actually, we do have some idea. Surveys have suggested that when Billy G. converted someone, they stayed converted.
   
I'd agre!
But, as you know, not all who actually went forward at a crusade went to make a commitmrnt..I listed some of the other reasons in an earlier post.
Of those who DID make a commitment for Christ, though, the majority remained firm in their new life. A surprising number of those who became Christian had no previous church connection; that's why we were on hand with info on various churches which would pastor them, should they wish to go.
Many, many did!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #135 on: February 24, 2018, 10:04:08 AM »
I was one of the goers-forward once, but I was only about 11 or 12 at the time, and didn't really understand. I thought it was about making an effort to be good, and that lasted less than a week.
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Walter

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #136 on: February 24, 2018, 10:08:53 AM »
   
I'd agre!
But, as you know, not all who actually went forward at a crusade went to make a commitmrnt..I listed some of the other reasons in an earlier post.
Of those who DID make a commitment for Christ, though, the majority remained firm in their new life. A surprising number of those who became Christian had no previous church connection; that's why we were on hand with info on various churches which would pastor them, should they wish to go.
Many, many did!
......and the bollox becomes re-enforced !
 where have I seen that happen before?

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #137 on: February 24, 2018, 11:18:49 AM »
I was one of the goers-forward once, but I was only about 11 or 12 at the time, and didn't really understand. I thought it was about making an effort to be good, and that lasted less than a week.


That reminds me of something that happened in 1980 - the Luis Palau Crusade (Ayrshire).
We took a load of Sunday School age kids there (12-15 year olds; we would not have been happy with younger ones there).
I was a counsellor, mainly concerned with my peer group, mainly young adults, so wasn't involved.
Anyway, of the fifteen kids we took, nine went forward.
Yes, I know, peer pressure and all that.
As I understnd it they were referred to my local congregation, which for reasons I don't understand, felt unable to deal with this. Several kids went to the local Bretheren, several more to a Baptist or Pentecostal church for mentoring.
Of the nine who went forward, seven remain commited Christians today (though one of the remainder has died).
I got into trouble for not encouraging the new Christians to go to MY congregation....though it was diddly squat to do with me.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ippy

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #138 on: February 24, 2018, 12:35:08 PM »

That reminds me of something that happened in 1980 - the Luis Palau Crusade (Ayrshire).
We took a load of Sunday School age kids there (12-15 year olds; we would not have been happy with younger ones there).
I was a counsellor, mainly concerned with my peer group, mainly young adults, so wasn't involved.
Anyway, of the fifteen kids we took, nine went forward.
Yes, I know, peer pressure and all that.
As I understnd it they were referred to my local congregation, which for reasons I don't understand, felt unable to deal with this. Several kids went to the local Bretheren, several more to a Baptist or Pentecostal church for mentoring.
Of the nine who went forward, seven remain commited Christians today (though one of the remainder has died).
I got into trouble for not encouraging the new Christians to go to MY congregation....though it was diddly squat to do with me.

I've just come back from walking the dog and thought I'll sit for a minute then have a read of whatever comes up on the forum, your post, it made me think, apart from the social side of this religious stuff of yours which I find easy to understand, for the life of me I really can't see anything of a realistic value in any of the rest of it, I cannot see how anyone, not just you, gets so taken up by this stuff.

What is it that has drawn you Anch, into this religious fold, apparently so deeply, it baffles me? 

Regards ippy

P S I just spoke my thoughts as they come into my head.

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #139 on: February 24, 2018, 05:12:54 PM »
I've just come back from walking the dog and thought I'll sit for a minute then have a read of whatever comes up on the forum, your post, it made me think, apart from the social side of this religious stuff of yours which I find easy to understand, for the life of me I really can't see anything of a realistic value in any of the rest of it, I cannot see how anyone, not just you, gets so taken up by this stuff.

What is it that has drawn you Anch, into this religious fold, apparently so deeply, it baffles me? 

Regards ippy   
 
P S I just spoke my thoughts as they come into my head.
   

Well, I've never gone forward at one of thos rally thingies, but I suspect the same thing happened to those who id.
I encountered Christ; pure and simple.
Is it rational?
Who cares?
For those of us who HAVE encountered Him, though, the relationship is real.
That doesn't mean surrendering my marbles for ' woo-woo' stuf; nor does it mean ceasing to use the mind  what's left of it - that God gave me, eitherr.
I'll take one of those kids who went forward at Ayrshire 1980 as an example.
She was twelve when she made a commitment; probably a childhood fantasy....but if it is, she maintains that 'fantasy' today.
She'ss a lecturer in physics at Glasgow Uni now...and still as commited to Christ as the day she went forward.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Maeght

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #140 on: February 24, 2018, 08:32:21 PM »
   

Well, I've never gone forward at one of thos rally thingies, but I suspect the same thing happened to those who id.
I encountered Christ; pure and simple.
Is it rational?
Who cares?
For those of us who HAVE encountered Him, though, the relationship is real.
That doesn't mean surrendering my marbles for ' woo-woo' stuf; nor does it mean ceasing to use the mind  what's left of it - that God gave me, eitherr.
I'll take one of those kids who went forward at Ayrshire 1980 as an example.
She was twelve when she made a commitment; probably a childhood fantasy....but if it is, she maintains that 'fantasy' today.
She'ss a lecturer in physics at Glasgow Uni now...and still as commited to Christ as the day she went forward.

In what way did you encounter Jesus?

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2018, 09:19:56 PM »
In what way did you encounter Jesus?




On my knees in my bedroom....surprised and a bit shocked, since I'd been an atheist for the previous five years.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2018, 11:29:11 PM »



On my knees in my bedroom....surprised and a bit shocked, since I'd been an atheist for the previous five years.

That’s where and your reaction to it. It’s not how.

Walter

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2018, 11:48:43 PM »



On my knees in my bedroom....surprised and a bit shocked, since I'd been an atheist for the previous five years.
I bet you had your eyes closed.........and it wasn't jesus !!!!!!

ippy

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2018, 12:22:55 AM »
   

Well, I've never gone forward at one of thos rally thingies, but I suspect the same thing happened to those who id.
I encountered Christ; pure and simple.
Is it rational?
Who cares?
For those of us who HAVE encountered Him, though, the relationship is real.
That doesn't mean surrendering my marbles for ' woo-woo' stuf; nor does it mean ceasing to use the mind  what's left of it - that God gave me, eitherr.
I'll take one of those kids who went forward at Ayrshire 1980 as an example.
She was twelve when she made a commitment; probably a childhood fantasy....but if it is, she maintains that 'fantasy' today.
She'ss a lecturer in physics at Glasgow Uni now...and still as commited to Christ as the day she went forward.

No still don't get it and I truthfully say I still don't want to either, nor am I looking for something missing in my life.

The spiritual journey often referred to, by the many that share your kind of belief, seems meaningless to me.

A short few days ago I was talking to another dog walker I knew, that lived across the road from my previous house, I've moved about a five minute walk away from my previous address, it was a lovely sunny morning and she was saying to me how much she enjoyed looking at creation in all of its glory, I couldn't help thinking to myself, another one living in the stone age, I just smiled and said yes.

If you could see these ideas through my eyes and it's not just my incredility that people are still into this stuff, it is partly that it's the zero of anything credible that would in any way support these ideas, making my eyes dissappear over the top of my head.

Were it not for the fact that much the larger percentage of people that hold these religious beliefs, insist on passing them on to the very youngest and vulnerable children of the next generation, for which I think is unforgivable, religious believers wouldn't bother me as much as they do, I just hope these beliefs all go the way of the previous ones like Zeus, Wotan and Thor etc, I just wish they would get on with it, the sooner the better.

The U K's in the forefront of failing religion, 53% non-religious here at tha last count I heard of.

Doesn't the lack of viable evidence that might have given these beliefs a lift at least put some question marks inside your head Anch?

Regards ippy

P S I'm on my tablet, no spell check, I have difficulty spelling my own name.

Maeght

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2018, 07:26:49 AM »



On my knees in my bedroom....surprised and a bit shocked, since I'd been an atheist for the previous five years.

As Rhiannon points out, that's not what I was asking. I wondered what form this encounter took.

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #146 on: February 25, 2018, 09:43:28 AM »
That’s where and your reaction to it. It’s not how.
   

OK:
Having reluctantly read bits of Scripture...and tried hard to deny the existence of God, I had to admit to myself the possibility of His being, and Christ being who He said He was.
On that possibility, I prayed.
Having seen smushy Hollywood stuff showing folk on their knees, I knelt in silence.
My prayer?
Not very churchy language.
"God, if You're there, do something in me."
He did.
I begun to feel an awarness of presence - an awarness which has not left me to this day. So, after ten minutes, I said
"OK...I acknowledge that you exist. I want to know more of you, and I surrender.
So I waved the white flag there and then.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Walter

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #147 on: February 25, 2018, 10:22:04 AM »
   

OK:
Having reluctantly read bits of Scripture...and tried hard to deny the existence of God, I had to admit to myself the possibility of His being, and Christ being who He said He was.
On that possibility, I prayed.
Having seen smushy Hollywood stuff showing folk on their knees, I knelt in silence.
My prayer?
Not very churchy language.
"God, if You're there, do something in me."
He did.
I begun to feel an awarness of presence - an awarness which has not left me to this day. So, after ten minutes, I said
"OK...I acknowledge that you exist. I want to know more of you, and I surrender.
So I waved the white flag there and then.
WOW!  'an awareness of presence' , what more could anyone need?  ::) ::) ::)

'do something in me'  i nearly spat my tea out hahahahah


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #148 on: February 25, 2018, 11:51:16 AM »
Anchs,

Quote
Well, I've never gone forward at one of thos rally thingies, but I suspect the same thing happened to those who id.

I encountered Christ; pure and simple.

Is it rational?

Who cares?

Surely the better question would be, “is it true?” wouldn’t it?

“Is it rational?” is still a good question mind, only I think you’ve misapplied it: it’s not, “is an encounter with Jesus rational?”; rather it’s, “is the belief that I did have an encounter with Jesus rational?” and – if you’re going to live your life by the answer – then yes I’d have though you would care.   

Quote
For those of us who HAVE encountered Him, though, the relationship is real.

See above. Why would you conclude that you’ve done any such thing?

Quote
That doesn't mean surrendering my marbles for ' woo-woo' stuf; nor does it mean ceasing to use the mind  what's left of it - that God gave me, eitherr.

Well…

Quote
I'll take one of those kids who went forward at Ayrshire 1980 as an example.

She was twelve when she made a commitment; probably a childhood fantasy....but if it is, she maintains that 'fantasy' today.

She'ss a lecturer in physics at Glasgow Uni now...and still as commited to Christ as the day she went forward.

Which is precisely why religions try to get them early (“cradle catholics” and all that). Profound religious beliefs (it doesn’t matter much which beliefs they happen to be) formed before the critical faculties form go deep into the limbic system, they become instinctive rather than reasoned and so are exceptionally hard to lose in later life. That incidentally is why those who can do it are often reported to be traumatised by the experience.   

Quote
On my knees in my bedroom....surprised and a bit shocked, since I'd been an atheist for the previous five years.

Doesn’t work. Why would an atheist be on his knees at all?

Quote
OK:
Having reluctantly read bits of Scripture...and tried hard to deny the existence of God, I had to admit to myself the possibility of His being, and Christ being who He said He was.
On that possibility, I prayed.
Having seen smushy Hollywood stuff showing folk on their knees, I knelt in silence.
My prayer?
Not very churchy language.
"God, if You're there, do something in me."
He did.
I begun to feel an awarness of presence - an awarness which has not left me to this day. So, after ten minutes, I said
"OK...I acknowledge that you exist. I want to know more of you, and I surrender.
So I waved the white flag there and then.

That’s interesting as it sets out very clearly why the narrative is so flawed. Let’s deconstruct it to see why:

Quote
Having reluctantly read bits of Scripture...

OK, so you had the cultural knowledge of one belief system in particular already in place, and thus there was something for confirmation bias to feed on a priori.

Quote
…and tried hard to deny the existence of God,…

That’s not what atheism entails. “Denying the existence of God” implies you thought there was a god to be “denied” in the first place (ie, Vlad’s “gododging” nonsense in other words). Atheism merely limits itself though to finding the arguments for god to be hopeless – no more, no less.

Quote
I had to admit to myself the possibility of His being, and Christ being who He said He was. On that possibility, I prayed.

“Possibility” is undeniable, but that’s true of anything – gods, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, whatever. Why then would an atheist have “prayed” to the one to which he happened to be most enculturated?
 
Quote
Having seen smushy Hollywood stuff showing folk on their knees, I knelt in silence.
My prayer?
Not very churchy language.
"God, if You're there, do something in me."
He did.

Whoa there! It’s a huge leap from “an experience happened” to “He did” with none of the hard yards of reason or evidence to get you from one to the other. Why did the narrative of “He did” appeal to you more than the various alternative (but less solipsistically thrilling) alternatives?

Quote
I begun to feel an awarness of presence - an awarness which has not left me to this day.

Lots of issues there. Many report the same thing about different “presences” of any manner of ghosts, spooks, ghoulies, deities and various whatnots that you’d think to be false. What makes you right and them wrong? How too did you go about eliminating the several physiological explanations for this experience so as to be sure that there was a “something” external to you rather than just a mind-induced episode?   

Quote
So,…

Noooooo! (See above.)

Quote
… after ten minutes, I said
"OK...I acknowledge that you exist. I want to know more of you, and I surrender.
So I waved the white flag there and then.

Why “surrender” to a belief? This reads to me at least as a surrender of your critical faculties rather than a surrender to a god, with a hint of Stockholm syndrome in the mix too.

This is why your story is interesting I think: it adds to the mountain of reasons some of us see to conclude that people believe in god(s) for very bad reasons. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 12:38:51 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #149 on: February 25, 2018, 12:41:59 PM »
Anchs,

Surely the better question would be, “is it true?” wouldn’t it?

“Is it rational?” is still a good question mind, only I think you’ve misapplied it: it’s not, “is an encounter with Jesus rational?”; rather it’s, “is the narrative that I did have an encounter with Jesus rational?” and – if you’re going to live your life by the answer – then yes I’d have though you would care.   

See above. Why would you conclude that you’ve done any such thing?

Well…

Which is precisely why religions try to get them early (“cradle catholics” and all that). Profound religious beliefs (it doesn’t matter much which beliefs they happen to be) formed before the critical faculties form go deep into the limbic system, they become instinctive rather than reasoned and so are exceptionally hard to lose in later life. That incidentally is why those who can do it are often reported to be traumatised by the experience.   

Doesn’t work. Why would an atheist be on his knees at all?

That’s interesting as it sets out very clearly why the narrative is so flawed. Let’s deconstruct it to see why:

OK, so you had the cultural knowledge of one belief system in particular already in place, and thus there was something for confirmation bias to feed on a priori.

That’s not what atheism entails. “Denying the existence of God” implies you thought there was a god to be “denied” in the first place (ie, Vlad’s “gododging” nonsense in other words). Atheism merely limits itself though to finding the arguments for god to be hopeless – no more, no less.

“Possibility” is undeniable, but that’s true of anything – gods, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, whatever. Why then would an atheist have “prayed” to the one to which he happened to be most enculturated?
 
Whoa there! It’s a huge leap from “an experience happened” to “He did” with none of the hard yards of reason or evidence to get you from one to the other. Why did the narrative of “He did” appeal to you more than the various alternative (but less solipsistically thrilling) alternatives?

Lots of issues there. Many report the same thing about different “presences” of any manner of ghosts, spooks, ghoulies, deities and various whatnots that you’d think to be false. What makes you right and them wrong? How too did you go about eliminating the several physiological explanations for this experience so as to be sure that there was a “something” external to you rather than just a mind-induced episode?   

Noooooo! (See above.)

Why “surrender” to a belief? This reads to me at least as a surrender of your critical faculties rather than a surrender to a god, with a hint of Stockholm syndrome in the mix too.

This is why your story is interesting I think: it adds to the mountain of reasons some of us see to conclude that people believe in god(s) for very bad reasons.
You seem be holding the exclusive views, that it is possible for god to be meaningless noise, yet be possible and if those weren't bad or contractory enough to be also simultaneously unreasonable at one and the same time.
My reading of Anchors conversion is that he took the possibility of the Christian job reasonably. If it is possible that there is a Christian God then it is possible that he may respond.
I can imagine that this same possibility also inspires some to retreat otherwise they would all do what Anchor did.
Is one retreating from God or the possibility? That must be the on going process going on with those who hold that God is possible but do not chose Anchors way of dealing with it.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 12:51:17 PM by Private Frazer »