Author Topic: Billy Graham has died  (Read 14242 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 04:07:28 PM »

Lives were changed.
I know a few who, by being changed, have changed the lives of others.

And the CofE was changed to become less humane, les tolerant, less loving. The rot that alienates gay and trans people, the attitude that turns away the children of unmarried parents, was fostered by Graham, among others. He represented an ugly side of Christianity. His influence was toxic.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 04:11:52 PM »



Humph; Mission Scotland took place in Celtic Park (home of Glasgow Celtic, famously known for its RC roots)
I was a counsellor there that week.
Some of the prayers were conducted by John Fitsimmons, a very well known RC Priest, sadly no longer with us.
The notorious bigot 'Pastor' Jack Glass handed out flyers each night denouncing Graham for having met and prayed with the Pope.
Mind you, said Pastor was infamous for doing the same thing, year after year, outside the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland....apparently he nearly blew a fuse when an RC archbishop was warmly welcomed and invited to speak to us one year.

Thank you for that piece of local history.

My point was that Billy, whilst not a Catholic, and not agreeing with the RC faith, was prepared to pray with those of that faith even though there were some differences.

As for Jack Glass, a higher authority than me will judge him. I like to think that somewhere else, Ian Paisley is trying to put a case for Glass.....

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 04:12:29 PM »
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 04:14:33 PM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 04:26:03 PM »
Thank you for that piece of local history.

My point was that Billy, whilst not a Catholic, and not agreeing with the RC faith, was prepared to pray with those of that faith even though there were some differences.

As for Jack Glass, a higher authority than me will judge him. I like to think that somewhere else, Ian Paisley is trying to put a case for Glass.....
He was a very odd wee man, the 'Paistor' he was getting ready to protest a meeting at Glasgow Uni once and asked me where it was happening and chatted away perfectly nicely until we got to the building, and then started shouting at me (and everyone else0 about how evil we were attending it.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 04:26:36 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
For Christ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7E7C1X6vPU

Is that for the better or for the worse in your opinion?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2018, 04:27:44 PM »
Hitchens?
On another board Dicky Underpants knocked me for referring to John of the apocalypse because apparently he was a ''Drug Fuelled'' fanatic.
Hitchens could imbibe and write sense, Revelation is gibberish

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2018, 04:33:24 PM »
NS,

Quote
Citing Hitchens isn't evidence - not sure why you are asking about the anti semitism as I didn't questions that.

You didn't ask for evidence, you asked whether I was sure. I answered that I wasn't sure about anything, and when you clarified by saying you meant "sure" only in the colloquial, everyday sense then in that sense yes - as sure as I would be for any other character witness with a strong track record. That's why character witnesses are listened to. If you meant am I sure in a stronger sense than that though, then no - and nor did I claim to be.

I mentioned the ant-semitism only because in some sense that too is a form of lying.     
"Don't make me come down there."

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SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2018, 04:37:00 PM »
My first reaction when reading topic title was: about time too.

How many people did he delude into thinking God loved them, etc, persuading them to come forward and all that stuff.
Delude? I can't wait to see your outline of why.  8) If he was so wrong, I'm absolutely wrong you will have no problem explaining why, no problem at all.

Over to you...
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2018, 04:42:26 PM »
He was a very odd wee man, the 'Paistor' he was getting ready to protest a meeting at Glasgow Uni once and asked me where it was happening and chatted away perfectly nicely until we got to the building, and then started shouting at me (and everyone else0 about how evil we were attending it.
   




Ah, the memories come flooding back.....
Walking past the knicker-bedecked statue of John Knox outside the Assembly Hall (The authorities were obviously still sleeping of the previous day's events and hadn't gotten round to removing said garment)...and Glass ranting, flyers in hand, thrusting them at all and sundry, condemning us for entering and consorting with a church which 'danced with Rome'.
When I refused a flyer because it was very small print, I was informed that my blindness was 'a sign that, as you are not of the elect, and consorted with the Pope', yyou have been judged and found wanting"
Nice man, wee Jack!

"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 04:44:18 PM »
Delude? I can't wait to see your outline of why.  8) If he was so wrong, I'm absolutely wrong you will have no problem explaining why, no problem at all.

Over to you...
If you are deluded it would be very difficult to explain that to you.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2018, 04:46:00 PM »
NS,

You didn't ask for evidence, you asked whether I was sure. I answered that I wasn't sure about anything, and when you clarified by saying you meant "sure" only in the colloquial, everyday sense then in that sense yes - as sure as I would be for any other character witness with a strong track record. That's why character witnesses are listened to. If you meant am I sure in a stronger sense than that though, then no - and nor did I claim to be.

I mentioned the ant-semitism only because in some sense that too is a form of lying.   
No, anti semitism is not a form of lying.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 04:46:50 PM »
If you are deluded it would be very difficult to explain that to you.
Truth is truth, regardless of the individual's ability to comprehend it, so that is no excuse for failing to answer the question.

Quote
How many people did he delude into thinking God loved them, etc, persuading them to come forward and all that stuff.
If Billy Graham was wrong to do what he did, why was he?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Walter

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2018, 04:48:50 PM »
Delude? I can't wait to see your outline of why.  8) If he was so wrong, I'm absolutely wrong you will have no problem explaining why, no problem at all.

Over to you...
ill answer that , Because the whole god and Jesus thing is simply a man made construct. Simple .

He made money from telling lies

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2018, 04:50:13 PM »
Eh?
If Billy Graham was wrong to do what he did, why was he?
Deluded people are quite hard to convince that they are wrong on account of being deluded.

SusanDoris

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2018, 04:50:41 PM »
Delude? I can't wait to see your outline of why.  8) If he was so wrong, I'm absolutely wrong you will have no problem explaining why, no problem at all.

Over to you...
First, I would ask you please to re-write your post. You will recall no doubt that I listen to posts, I do not look at them and although I have listened several times, the part after the 8 doesn’t make sense.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2018, 04:50:58 PM »
Anchs,

Is that for the better or for the worse in your opinion?



Since I took the step so many others took - albeit in the privacy of my own bedroom, and every day, I thank God I did, you decide.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2018, 04:54:05 PM »
Truth is truth, regardless of the individual's ability to comprehend it, so that is no excuse for failing to answer the question.
If Billy Graham was wrong to do what he did, why was he?
You seem very confused, you were asking to be convinced you were wrong and in that case the ability to comprehend is crucial. I have no idea why you are asking me to justify something I haven't said so I ignored your question as irrelevant.

Robbie

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2018, 05:06:04 PM »
This para in answer to Walter: In order to lie you have to know what you are saying is untrue.  Someone may give wrong information which they sincerely believe to be true, later proved not to be, but that's not lying.  Lying is deliberate deceit.

Anchor, I too saw BillyGraham, I can't remember precisely when but I was an adult, mid to late twenties so i guess it was the 1980s. There were posters stuck all over the place, like bus shelters, with 'Life' written on them. I enjoyed the evening, was surprised at how low key it was in many ways.

Billy Graham was a human being with flaws like anyone else. At times in his life he said things about which he later felt differently, and admitted that. He was an ecumenist, believed not only that all professing Christians should unite and appreciate what they have in common but members of other faiths too.  He said so. He probably felt differently when he was younger. Life is like that, we live and learn until the day we die.

I believe Billy Graham was an upright man, as for Christopher Hitchens who was for some reason brought into this discussion, I've no reason to suppose he was anything other than upright: being upright does not mean being perfect, no-one is.

Regarding Billy Graham's estate, is it anyone's business how much he left. I doubt anything would be hidden.  He had five children and many grand and great grandchildren, one would hope he distributed some of it to them whilst still alive, a sensible thing most of us will do, but why speculate about something that is of no concern to anyone outside the family. It's tasteless in the extreme.

(Franklin Graham does not appeal to me at all, a different kettle of fish to his father; one hopes he will have a change in attitude as he gets older but we aren't discussing him on this thread.)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 06:23:48 PM by Robbie »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2018, 05:06:52 PM »
   




Ah, the memories come flooding back.....
Walking past the knicker-bedecked statue of John Knox outside the Assembly Hall (The authorities were obviously still sleeping of the previous day's events and hadn't gotten round to removing said garment)...and Glass ranting, flyers in hand, thrusting them at all and sundry, condemning us for entering and consorting with a church which 'danced with Rome'.
When I refused a flyer because it was very small print, I was informed that my blindness was 'a sign that, as you are not of the elect, and consorted with the Pope', yyou have been judged and found wanting"
Nice man, wee Jack!


Well if the Paistor was  sign of being elect, then God likes huge pricks.

Rhiannon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2018, 06:15:18 PM »
I’m trying to figure out why anyone says ‘and he prayed with Catholics and others’ in tones of admiration.

Robbie

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2018, 06:27:11 PM »
Not really admiration Rhiannon, just to illustrate that as Billy Graham was on his journey he came to believe in ecumenism &  the integrity of all beliefs. A lot of Christians don't! (I do.)
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Rhiannon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2018, 06:35:00 PM »
Not really admiration Rhiannon, just to illustrate that as Billy Graham was on his journey he came to believe in ecumenism &  the integrity of all beliefs. A lot of Christians don't! (I do.)

It doesn’t say much for Christianity that this needs stating. Actually it’s bewildering.

Robbie

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2018, 07:03:59 PM »
Christianity is diverse, some groups are almost exclusive and suspicious of others. It's unfortunate but that's how it is. Those committed to ecumenism are doing what they can to change those attitudes.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
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Rhiannon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2018, 07:31:47 PM »
Christianity is diverse, some groups are almost exclusive and suspicious of others. It's unfortunate but that's how it is. Those committed to ecumenism are doing what they can to change those attitudes.

It’s not unfortunate, it’s ridiculous. (I don’t need an explanation of the ‘diversity’ of Christianity btw - raised by Roman/Anglo Catholics, went to a Baptist chapel Sunday School, nearly became and Anglican priest).

Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2018, 07:39:03 PM »
Not really admiration Rhiannon, just to illustrate that as Billy Graham was on his journey he came to believe in ecumenism &  the integrity of all beliefs. A lot of Christians don't! (I do.)



He might have accepted the integrety f all beliefs.
That does not mean he did not accept the truth of the message he preached - that he saw in Scripture no other interpretation other than Christ was, and is, the One way to God.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."