Author Topic: Billy Graham has died  (Read 14211 times)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2018, 04:21:02 PM »
The point I'm making is, quite simply, and given that this thread is specifically about Billy Graham, is that despite all the warm words about him on his demise, his stated aim was to promote Christianity in Scotland and in that regard he clearly failed.

What branch of Christianity he belonged to doesn't mask the fact that despite his attempt to promote Christianity in Scotland the opposite has occurred: it is in decline, as the link I posted (from 2017) shows.




I am English.

I look forward to the day when I have an English Passport.

What Scottish people do is their business.


Gordon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2018, 04:24:08 PM »

I am English.

I look forward to the day when I have an English Passport.

What Scottish people do is their business.

Which is utterly irrelevant to my point about the ineffectiveness of the American Billy Graham in his efforts to promote Christianity in Scotland.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2018, 04:26:09 PM »
Which is utterly irrelevant to my point about the ineffectiveness of the American Billy Graham in his efforts to promote Christianity in Scotland.

Erm..I don't care about Scotland.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2018, 04:29:40 PM »
Erm..I don't care about Scotland.
Which again is irrelevant to the point

Gordon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2018, 04:40:40 PM »
Erm..I don't care about Scotland.

You do realise that I'm using Scotland only to illustrate a point about Billy Graham, given his media coverage of his death, and noting his ineffectiveness.

In any event your disdain for Scotland (and I've no idea how we've upset you so) isn't the issue I was highlighting, so I've no idea why you even mention it - so if it helps I'll also note that Christianity is declining in England too, so my point about his ineffectiveness applies equally to your locality (since I'm assuming Billy Graham was active there too).

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2018, 04:56:28 PM »
You do realise that I'm using Scotland only to illustrate a point about Billy Graham, given his media coverage of his death, and noting his ineffectiveness.

In any event your disdain for Scotland (and I've no idea how we've upset you so) isn't the issue I was highlighting, so I've no idea why you even mention it - so if it helps I'll also note that Christianity is declining in England too, so my point about his ineffectiveness applies equally to your locality (since I'm assuming Billy Graham was active there too).
He is only as effective as the Holy Spirit is effective.
At many evangelical revivals in the past statistics were sometimes taken of 'spiritual decisions made and number of people saved.
You might breath a sigh of relief at non responders and those whose spiritual decisions not to accept Jesus but you are taking a punt on that being the right decision.

Walter

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2018, 05:03:39 PM »
You do realise that I'm using Scotland only to illustrate a point about Billy Graham, given his media coverage of his death, and noting his ineffectiveness.

In any event your disdain for Scotland (and I've no idea how we've upset you so) isn't the issue I was highlighting, so I've no idea why you even mention it - so if it helps I'll also note that Christianity is declining in England too, so my point about his ineffectiveness applies equally to your locality (since I'm assuming Billy Graham was active there too).
He's obviously angry about something . I put it down to his Christianity and how it has prevented him from being fully engaged with the opposite sex . Have you seen what he's posted on another thread today , obvious frustration there me thinks

Gordon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2018, 05:09:53 PM »
He is only as effective as the Holy Spirit is effective.

Then (and ignoring how you know this) the Holy Spirit isn't very effective.

Quote
At many evangelical revivals in the past statistics were sometimes taken of 'spiritual decisions made and number of people saved.

Super: and the data collection and data analysis methods were? In addition how did they account for pre existing bias given that a religious crusading event might tend to attract some who were already predisposed to religion.

Quote
You might breath a sigh of relief at non responders and those whose spiritual decisions not to accept Jesus but you are taking a punt on that being the right decision.

I'm not taking a punt on anything, Vlad: just observing that despite the efforts at promoting Christianity, such as by Billy Graham, here in the UK it is in decline.

ippy

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2018, 05:10:10 PM »
Deluded people are quite hard to convince that they are wrong on account of being deluded.

Seconded, right on the nail N S, a good answer, a very good answer.

Regards ippy.

ippy

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2018, 05:13:57 PM »
No point in me responding to someone who has left the forum so, no comment.

Night all.

I suppose if you're deluded that's about all you can say Rob.

Regards ippy

SteveH

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2018, 05:30:57 PM »
What did he say or write that was supposedly anti-semitic? I ask because some people start screeching about anti-semitism or homophobia or whatever at the mildest comments.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2018, 05:45:16 PM »
What did he say or write that was supposedly anti-semitic? I ask because some people start screeching about anti-semitism or homophobia or whatever at the mildest comments.
The anti semitic argument is based on what's linked to below (AFAIK). I think it is anti semtic but he also later apologised for it. Now some might say that he would say that after being caught but it's nor my take


https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/billy-graham-nixon-and-anti-semitism-the-bombshell-tapes-1.5844419

Robbie

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2018, 05:45:42 PM »


Oh sorry,I see link has already been posted. So will remove.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:50:19 PM by Robbie »
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SteveH

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2018, 05:49:27 PM »
Hmmm... not good, but could be worse, and he did apologise. Anyway, there is a powerful Jewish lobby, and it shouldn't be beyond criticism.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2018, 05:55:20 PM »
Hmmm... not good, but could be worse, and he did apologise. Anyway, there is a powerful Jewish lobby, and it shouldn't be beyond criticism.
His remarks are hardly criticism of a powerful Jewish lobby. It's fairly basic anti semitism. And yes, he did apologise, as I pointed out. Of the issues I have with what he said, it is less significant.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2018, 06:05:06 PM »
Then (and ignoring how you know this) the Holy Spirit isn't very effective.

Super: and the data collection and data analysis methods were? In addition how did they account for pre existing bias given that a religious crusading event might tend to attract some who were already predisposed to religion.

I'm not taking a punt on anything, Vlad: just observing that despite the efforts at promoting Christianity, such as by Billy Graham, here in the UK it is in decline.
I'm finding your judgment on the Holy Spirit as funny as that on the effectiveness of Billy Graham.
What measure are you making, what comparisons are you making?

The UK does not represent the world which after all was Dr Grahams ministry.
So we are left with at best a piece of jingoism from you Gordon.
That and an argumentum ad populum about numbers of Christians.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2018, 06:06:22 PM »
I'm finding your judgment on the Holy Spirit as funny as that on the effectiveness of Billy Graham.
What measure are you making, what comparisons are you making?

The UK does not represent the world which after all was Dr Grahams ministry.
So we are left with at best a piece of jingoism from you Gordon.
That and an argumentum ad populum about numbers of Christians.
Ah your o!d misunderstanding of the ad pop.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2018, 06:25:28 PM »
NS,

Quote
Ah your o!d misunderstanding of the ad pop.

And of the burden of proof. He conjures out of thin air a "Holy Spirit" then demands to know how other people would propose to measure it. Horses and carts come to mind. 
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God

Spud

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2018, 06:26:52 PM »
You do realise that I'm using Scotland only to illustrate a point about Billy Graham, given his media coverage of his death, and noting his ineffectiveness.

In any event your disdain for Scotland (and I've no idea how we've upset you so) isn't the issue I was highlighting, so I've no idea why you even mention it - so if it helps I'll also note that Christianity is declining in England too, so my point about his ineffectiveness applies equally to your locality (since I'm assuming Billy Graham was active there too).
His last rally in London was in 1989, I'm pretty sure I went to it. Well, my Dad was a, what's the word, he showed people to their seats for the whole week or however long, and I went along one evening.
I went along again in 1996 at a theatre in London expecting a similar event. But it was all on screen, filmed in the USA and had a lot of modern pop-influenced music- very noisy.
That spoiled it for me. From what I remember of the earlier rally in '89 I felt God spoke to me, but the later one in '96 seemed all fake; I just assumed he did that because he was too old to come in person, so it didn't bother me.
I wonder if that's one reason why Christianity has been declining recently- that BG hasn't been able to continue his rallys in person.

Spud

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2018, 06:28:57 PM »
Steward was the word I was looking for.

Gordon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2018, 07:15:15 PM »
I'm finding your judgment on the Holy Spirit as funny as that on the effectiveness of Billy Graham.
What measure are you making, what comparisons are you making?

Then read back: you commented on the Holy Spirit being a factor and I simply noted that the only conclusion must be that both Billy Graham and the Holy Spirit were inefficient given Graham's aim of promoting the uptake of Christianity in Scotland, and given its decline here since (see the link I posted earlier).

Quote
The UK does not represent the world which after all was Dr Grahams ministry.

Well he came here with intentions specific to Scotland: and failed.

Quote
So we are left with at best a piece of jingoism from you Gordon.

Not from me: I'm just drawing reasonable conclusions from data in the public domain.

Quote
That and an argumentum ad populum about numbers of Christians.

Nope: I'm just drawing attention to information confirming the decline of Christianity in Scotland and pointing out that this confirms that campaigns to increase the numbers of Christians in Scotland must have failed (since there are fewer of them than before).

Might be an idea for you to find out what the term argumentum ad populum means before using it again. 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:36:28 PM by Gordon »

Gordon

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2018, 07:36:28 PM »
I'm finding your judgment on the Holy Spirit as funny as that on the effectiveness of Billy Graham.
What measure are you making, what comparisons are you making?

Just read this again: so hang on sonny!

Earlier you say this:

Quote
He is only as effective as the Holy Spirit is effective.

Then I reply:

Quote
Then (and ignoring how you know this) the Holy Spirit isn't very effective.

Then you say:

Quote
At many evangelical revivals in the past statistics were sometimes taken of 'spiritual decisions made and number of people saved.

and I reply:

Quote
Super: and the data collection and data analysis methods were? In addition how did they account for pre existing bias given that a religious crusading event might tend to attract some who were already predisposed to religion.

Perhaps you need to pay more attention to your own posts.





Anchorman

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2018, 09:03:31 PM »
His last rally in London was in 1989, I'm pretty sure I went to it. Well, my Dad was a, what's the word, he showed people to their seats for the whole week or however long, and I went along one evening.
I went along again in 1996 at a theatre in London expecting a similar event. But it was all on screen, filmed in the USA and had a lot of modern pop-influenced music- very noisy.
That spoiled it for me. From what I remember of the earlier rally in '89 I felt God spoke to me, but the later one in '96 seemed all fake; I just assumed he did that because he was too old to come in person, so it didn't bother me.
I wonder if that's one reason why Christianity has been declining recently- that BG hasn't been able to continue his rallys in person.



The first mass rally I attended was by a German former POW, Anton Shulte, in Ayr...I expected the hysteria bit, but was pleasantly surprised by the poweful, expository preaching and dignified response.
My first experience of being a counsellor was at the Luis Palau Ayrshire Crusade in 1980; again, since the local churches had the biggest input, the set-up was dignified, the preaching more emotional but not OTT.
The Mission Scotland 1991 was a mixture of traditional hymns plus appearances from Graham Kendrick, Cliff Richard and my friend Ian White; a few testimonies from 'local' Scots, and Billy's incisive preaching.
The 'aftercare' when those who had come forward, was in an atmosphere of joy, and yet firmly rooted in Scripture without the much vaunted emotional hype.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2018, 10:03:11 PM »
Ah your o!d misunderstanding of the ad pop.
Why is it a misunderstanding? Bare statements like that aren't very helpful.
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Maeght

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Re: Billy Graham has died
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2018, 10:24:08 PM »
Why is it a misunderstanding? Bare statements like that aren't very helpful.

Ad populum is a fallacy which argues that something is true because lots of people believe in it. Gordon wasn't saying that.