Why RE is essential

[Walt Zingmatilder]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sikh-man-turban-ripped-off-parliament-hate-crime-police-london-portcullis-house-a8222376.html

[Rhiannon]

Why do you think RE or (more accurately) comparative religion would make a difference to bigotry? Or is it just that it would enable racist bigots to shout the correct religion when ordering people to go home?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why do you think RE or (more accurately) comparative religion would make a difference to bigotry? Or is it just that it would enable racist bigots to shout the correct religion when ordering people to go home?

The power of language Rhiannon.

[Rhiannon]

The power of language Rhiannon.

Can you elaborate on that?

[ProfessorDavey]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sikh-man-turban-ripped-off-parliament-hate-crime-police-london-portcullis-house-a8222376.html

How do you know that this guy hadn't studied RE?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How do you know that this guy hadn't studied RE?

Because he didn't know a Sikh from a muslim.
It doesn't seem that the English education system has stopped red neckism in it's tracks. RE was calmly swept under the carpet while a Woodheadesque secular curriculum focus was brought in.
It doesn't seem to have worked.

I used to debate with someone on another site whose thesis was that RE caused social violence.

[ProfessorDavey]

Because he didn't know a Sikh from a muslim.

That doesn't prove anything - he may well have studied RE but either didn't understand the distinction, or perhaps didn't care.

Now it isn't clear whether this person was from the UK, but all kids in the UK study RE, by law, and have done for decades. So surely, according to your argument, there should be no religious hate crime perpetrated by UK-educated kids.

[Nearly Sane]

That doesn't prove anything - he may well have studied RE but either didn't understand the distinction, or perhaps didn't care.

Now it isn't clear whether this person was from the UK, but all kids in the UK study RE, by law, and have done for decades. So surely, according to your argument, there should be no religious hate crime perpetrated by UK-educated kids.

Surely it might be but it would be based on good knowledge, as it appears that Vlad would have had no more issues with this if the idiot had shouted out something about the person being Sikh?

[ProfessorDavey]

It doesn't seem that the English education system has stopped red neckism in it's tracks. RE was calmly swept under the carpet while a Woodheadesque secular curriculum focus was brought in.
It doesn't seem to have worked.

I think there is a challenge here - we know that the vast, majority of kids in the UK aren't religious, certainly in any active way. So for the most part RE is learning about what others do. Now I am not saying that isn't a very valid thing to do, but it can easily become sterile and seemingly lack any relevance or meaning to, say a average 11 year old from a non religious household.

I think we need a major rethink of the curriculum area we tend currently to describe as RE to make it much more inclusive and by that I mean directly relevant to the 95% not the 5%. That would involve changing the focus entirely toward ethics (which is relevant to all kids), allowing age appropriate exploration of different ethical approaches and allowing kids to challenge and develop their own views. This would, of course, involve understanding the major religions as they are a major strand of ethical thinking in the UK and world today. But religious ethical approaches should not be seen as distinct from, nor better (or worse) than non religious ethical approaches.

[ProfessorDavey]

Surely it might be but it would be based on good knowledge, as it appears that Vlad would have had no more issues with this if the idiot had shouted out something about the person being Sikh?

True - but that is hardly getting us very far. It might be preferable if the target of a hate crime was the 'right' target (in this example an muslim) rather than the wrong target (as actually happened), but that seems to be playing very much at the margins I would have thought. Surely the main issue is the hate crime and its motivation itself.

To use an analogy - when I was a kid the 'P' word was used as a derogatory term for anyone of south asian origin, regardless of whether they came from Pakistan, India or Bangladesh (or elsewhere). Franky I'm not that fussed about arguing over the failure of geography lessons to allow people to differentiate appropriately - I'm rather more concerned with the hate crime and insult itself.

[Nearly Sane]

True - but that is hardly getting us very far. It might be preferable if the target of a hate crime was the 'right' target (in this example an muslim) rather than the wrong target (as actually happened), but that seems to be playing very much at the margins I would have thought. Surely the main issue is the hate crime and its motivation itself.

To use an analogy - when I was a kid the 'P' word was used as a derogatory term for anyone of south asian origin, regardless of whether they came from Pakistan, India or Bangladesh (or elsewhere). Franky I'm not that fussed about arguing over the failure of geography lessons to allow people to differentiate appropriately - I'm rather more concerned with the hate crime and insult itself.

Yes, but I was using that Vlad appears to be more concerned about the ignorance of which religion shown by the thug than the crime to try and shoe the emptiness of the thread.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes, but I was using that Vlad appears to be more concerned about the ignorance of which religion shown by the thug than the crime to try and shoe the emptiness of the thread.

Indeed.

I guess the point here is about two types of ignorance. The ignorance which leads someone to commit a hate crime against someone who looks different, or the ignorance of not knowing the difference between a muslim and a sikh. Both aren't great, but I know which one I am more concerned about.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

True - but that is hardly getting us very far. It might be preferable if the target of a hate crime was the 'right' target (in this example an muslim) rather than the wrong target (as actually happened), but that seems to be playing very much at the margins I would have thought. Surely the main issue is the hate crime and its motivation itself.

To use an analogy - when I was a kid the 'P' word was used as a derogatory term for anyone of south asian origin, regardless of whether they came from Pakistan, India or Bangladesh (or elsewhere). Franky I'm not that fussed about arguing over the failure of geography lessons to allow people to differentiate appropriately - I'm rather more concerned with the hate crime and insult itself.

That does lead to the question, which do you consider to be  worse? Ripping off a turban, or calling a non Muslim, a "Muslim"?

[ProfessorDavey]

That does lead to the question, which do you consider to be  worse? Ripping off a turban, or calling a non Muslim, a "Muslim"?

I suspect you'll need to ask the victim that question. I don't see how I can answer it.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I suspect you'll need to ask the victim that question. I don't see how I can answer it.

Oh Dear. Duckout.

[ProfessorDavey]

Oh Dear. Duckout.

Not really - it is pretty difficult for me to say, and actually I don't really think it is appropriate for me as an atheist to proffer a view on which is worse.

If you forced me I imagine the removal of the turban would be seen as worse but who knows - not me, but the victim presumably does so he really is the only person to be able to answer your question.

[ProfessorDavey]

That does lead to the question, which do you consider to be  worse? Ripping off a turban, or calling a non Muslim, a "Muslim"?

What do you think?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

The Assault.

Easy, was it not?

[ProfessorDavey]

The Assault.

Easy, was it not?

But it is surely more complicated - this in many people's eyes isn't an assault or perhaps is one of very limited severity. If I was walking down the street wearing a scarf and someone pulled it off me, I might be bewildered but if I wasn't in any way hurt I'd be unlikely to report it and probably wouldn't really consider I had been assaulted.

The whole point here is the significance of turban as an item of clothing.

[Robbie]

I think it would take a bit more than a tug to remove a turban, the guy would be pulled about from the head quite a lot so could be considered an assault.

It's not a bad idea, in my view, for kids to be taught about different cultures which would include religions, we live in a society of different cultures and it's good to have some understanding. If only to avoid making faux pas. I remember a woman of my acquaintance mentioning 'Sikh synagogues' and my nephew coming home from school saying a teacher had talked about 'the Mohammedan church'. Cringe or what? The children at school would contribute quite well as we are a mixed society. A lot of fear and prejudice stems from ignorance.

Comparative religion doesn't float everyone's boat, I've always been interested in it which must be fairly obvious or else I wouldn't be posting here. Same no doubt applies to other posters.

[jeremyp]

Why do you think RE or (more accurately) comparative religion would make a difference to bigotry? Or is it just that it would enable racist bigots to shout the correct religion when ordering people to go home?

I think he's alluding to the wrong religion bit.

[jeremyp]

How do you know that this guy hadn't studied RE?

If he was British, he almost certainly had.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think it would take a bit more than a tug to remove a turban, the guy would be pulled about from the head quite a lot so could be considered an assault.

It's not a bad idea, in my view, for kids to be taught about different cultures which would include religions, we live in a society of different cultures and it's good to have some understanding. If only to avoid making faux pas. I remember a woman of my acquaintance mentioning 'Sikh synagogues' and my nephew coming home from school saying a teacher had talked about 'the Mohammedan church'. Cringe or what? The children at school would contribute quite well as we are a mixed society. A lot of fear and prejudice stems from ignorance.

Comparative religion doesn't float everyone's boat, I've always been interested in it which must be fairly obvious or else I wouldn't be posting here. Same no doubt applies to other posters.

Absolutely.

[Robbie]

Further to my last post, I was thinking that different religions/cultures come up in subjects other than RE or comparative religion, for example in history, literature, art & sociology, which leads to discussion.

[Rhiannon]

Further to my last post, I was thinking that different religions/cultures come up in subjects other than RE or comparative religion, for example in history, literature, art & sociology, which leads to discussion.

In which case just do away with RE altogether.