Free will and personal responsibility

[Stranger]

I didn't, torridon did.

The first occurrence of the word "primitive" in this topic is in your post #18.

The whole idea that knowing that determinism makes sense is somehow going to improve things is a contradiction of determinism.

You seem to be suggesting that an idea cannot have an effect - which it clearly can, determinism or not.

[torridon]

I didn't, torridon did. The whole idea that knowing that determinism makes sense is somehow going to improve things is a contradiction of determinism. What happens, is what will happen.

No I didn't.  I said 'ancient', and in a context of responding to Rhiannon of how we come to terms with the knowledge of determinism.  Even in a deterministic universe, there will be patterns in how people react to knowledge, even if we have no real choice in the matter

[Nearly Sane]

No I didn't.  I said 'ancient', and in a context of responding to Rhiannon of how we come to terms with the knowledge of determinism.  Even in a deterministic universe, there will be patterns in how people react to knowledge, even if we have no real choice in the matter

indeed you did, my apologies, I obviously filled that in but then what's the difference between 'ancient instinctive' responses and our current instinctive responses? Surely all our responses are in that sense instinctive? 

[torridon]

indeed you did, my apologies, I obviously filled that in but then what's the difference between 'ancient instinctive' responses and our current instinctive responses? Surely all our responses are in that sense instinctive?

Well, in the sense that we could substitute 'instinctive' for 'deterministic', perhaps, yes that would be right. Does that mean that we give up trying to  think through problems because the outcome of our deliberations is inevitable ?  If we start thinking like that we have crossed a line from determinism into fatalism.  I see determinism as a framework of understanding in which the next moment is a logical consequence of the context of the current moment.  That should be a source of comfort, not despair; if the next moment were random or illogical then we would have no predictability. Determinism means I can go to sleep at night safe in the knowledge that the sun will rise again on the morning, but more than that, it means that there will be reasons why some guy will starting shooting up random strangers in America or wherever.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, in the sense that we could substitute 'instinctive' for 'deterministic', perhaps, yes that would be right. Does that mean that we give up trying to  think through problems because the outcome of our deliberations is inevitable ?  If we start thinking like that we have crossed a line from determinism into fatalism.  I see determinism as a framework of understanding in which the next moment is a logical consequence of the context of the current moment.  That should be a source of comfort, not despair; if the next moment were random or illogical then we would have no predictability. Determinism means I can go to sleep at night safe in the knowledge that the sun will rise again on the morning, but more than that, it means that there will be reasons why some guy will starting shooting up random strangers in America or wherever.

If someone croises over a line into fatalism, then that will have been determined. The idea that determinism can be used as a framework pf understanding is luducrous. You will do what you will do. U

[Stranger]

If someone croises over a line into fatalism, then that will have been determined.

Seems to have happened to you...

The idea that determinism can be used as a framework pf understanding is luducrous.

Why shouldn't understanding of determinism be a useful idea - just as any other understanding about our world is? You seem to be back at ideas not having an effect - which they obviously do.

You will do what you will do.

Yes you will - whether determinism is true or not.

[Nearly Sane]

Seems to have happened to you...

Why shouldn't understanding of determinism be a useful idea - just as any other understanding about our world is? You seem to be back at ideas not having an effect - which they obviously do.

Yes you will - whether determinism is true or not.

No, I'm not a fatalist. I can't chose what I believe and I don't believe on a day to day position in fatalism. There's a basic confusion with both you and torridon about looking at the idea of determinism in an intellectual sense and how you carry out your normal life, I haven't said ideas don't have effects, so how I can be back at it, I don't know, But the effect that ideas will have are determined too. You cannot talk about using them as if it is some conscious choice different from determinism as you and torridon seem to think in the intellectual view and be logically consistent.

[Stranger]

There's a basic confusion with both you and torridon about looking at the idea of determinism in an intellectual sense and how you carry out your normal life...

I really don't see what determinism has to do with normal (day to day) life. There is no practical implication because the point of view necessary to perceive how things are determined is no more accessible than that of the retrospective view I will have after I've made whatever choice it might be (somewhat less accessible, actually).

Intellectually, if true, it will tells us something about our universe and our minds.

I haven't said ideas don't have effects, so how I can be back at it, I don't know...

I was referring back to #24 and my reply #25, where you seemed to be suggesting the same thing.

But the effect that ideas will have are determined too.

Yes.

You cannot talk about using them as if it is some conscious choice different from determinism as you and torridon seem to think in the intellectual view and be logically consistent.

I wasn't aware of either of us considering conscious choices that are different from determinism (although I'm not actually sure that we are taking exactly the same position). However, it's largely irrelevant to most situations because we still make conscious choices and those choices have effects. There is nothing about determinism that changes that.

It's very odd the kind of reactions people have to the idea of determinism compared to, for example, relativity that provides strong evidence for the "block universe", where the future is as real and concrete as the past and 'now' is no more meaningful than 'here'.

[Udayana]

I’m a big believer that we are all responsible for the choices that we make, even though sometimes they may feel like ‘no choice’ options. At the same time though, I accept that free will is illusory. How do these apparent contradictions work? Can we really choose to change, to try to understand, to do better? And does ‘there’s no such thing as free will’ work as a valid excuse not to?

I think the answer is that you are as free as you feel, and as responsible. There is no logic to help decide what is a "valid" feeling or not.
 

[Bramble]

I'm yet to meet a 'determinist' who doesn't function in their personal life as though they had free will. The sense of being an agent with freedom of will is innate. It's an aspect of what we mean when we say 'I'. I'm not sure how anyone could function normally without feeling free in this sense, whatever their intellectual conclusions on the matter. Presumably we have evolved this way for good reasons to do with survival. So one might say that to the extent we are persons with selfhood we have free will. This doesn't preclude an understanding that all 'our' choices are in fact dependent on causes and conditions that logically undermine the theory that we have free will. Both positions are 'true' from their own perspectives, even if these 'truths' may seem mutually exclusive. This kind of paradox tends to offend the rational mind, but that's life for you. I suspect we get knotted up about this issue because the debate tends to be framed in a way that ignores the illusory nature of self, conceiving instead the self as a kind of reified 'thing' that is either free or determined. This may to a large extent be a cultural problem. The free will vs determinism argument features large in the west but isn't really considered an issue in some eastern cultures.

[Nearly Sane]

I really don't see what determinism has to do with normal (day to day) life. There is no practical implication because the point of view necessary to perceive how things are determined is no more accessible than that of the retrospective view I will have after I've made whatever choice it might be (somewhat less accessible, actually).

Intellectually, if true, it will tells us something about our universe and our minds.

I was referring back to #24 and my reply #25, where you seemed to be suggesting the same thing.

Yes.

I wasn't aware of either of us considering conscious choices that are different from determinism (although I'm not actually sure that we are taking exactly the same position). However, it's largely irrelevant to most situations because we still make conscious choices and those choices have effects. There is nothing about determinism that changes that.

It's very odd the kind of reactions people have to the idea of determinism compared to, for example, relativity that provides strong evidence for the "block universe", where the future is as real and concrete as the past and 'now' is no more meaningful than 'here'.

Since my position is that determinism doesn't have anything to di with day to day life, it would seem we are talking past each other. And that you have repeater your idea that I was saying that ideas do not have an effectbon real life doesn't mean that I have said that.