Should religious beliefs preclude holding public office?

[ProfessorDavey]

How does this prevent atheists or humanists from setting up state schools of a '' specific world view''?

See above - however it is unclear whether the government would ever approve a humanist free school anyway. The desire by Humanist UK to set one up (not that they have that desire) doesn't guarantee that it would be approved. So once again you are comparing hypotheticals with real situations.

And as I have outlined above even if such a hypothetical school were permitted to be established under current law it wouldn't come close to being equivalent to current faith schools in terms of the special privileges those schools have.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So perhaps we might want to look at the differences that would exist between a hypothetical humanist school (even if one were permitted to be established by Government) and a current faith school, lets use a catholic one as an example. This is based entirely on current law:

Existing catholic faith school (e.g. an academy)

1. Can discriminate in admissions policies to give preference to catholics or admit only catholics
2. Can advertise all posts with being a practising catholic as an essential job requirement
3. Can require all governors to be practising catholics
4. Can use wide ranging 'adherence to ethos' requirements within disciplinary processes for all staff even if activity is a private matter - e.g. a member of staff separates from their spouse.
5. Can teach an RE curriculum that focussed exclusively on their religious beliefs, in line with the tenets of their faith.
6. Can include daily acts of worship of their faith (if this were a jewish faith school, they could replace basic requirement for christian worship with jewish worship
7. Can have their own separate inspection system established by their church to inspect the ethos and RE/faith aspects of the school, but paid for by the tax payer.
8. School funded 100% from state funding.

Hypothetical humanist school (e.g. a free school)

1. Cannot discriminate whatsoever in admissions policies to give preference to humanists or admit only humanists (to do so would be breaking the law)
2. Cannot advertise all posts with being a humanist as an essential job requirement (to do so would be breaking the law) - the only exception being senior staff under genuine occupational requirement as applies to all employers - would only be permitted to be worded as adherence to ethos, not being (for example) a member of humanist UK
3. Cannot require parent/staff governors to be humanists
4. Cannot use wide ranging 'adherence to ethos' requirements within disciplinary processes for all staff even if activity is a private matter - e.g. a member of staff separates from their spouse. (to do so would be breaking the law)
5. Cannot create a curriculum in line with the tenets of their belief, e.g. by replacing RE with a humanist curriculum.
6. Must include a daily act of worship of a broadly christian nature
7. Cannot have their own separate inspection system established by humanist UK (for example) to inspect the ethos and aspects of the school - inspection entirely by independent Ofsted inspectors.
8. School funded 100% from state funding.

Perhaps you might begin to understand what we mean by special privileges for religion, Vlad.

Humanist schools are permitted.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

See above - however it is unclear whether the government would ever approve a humanist free school anyway.

I don't think it is at all unclear given the guidelines you posted.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So perhaps we might want to look at the differences that would exist between a hypothetical humanist school (even if one were permitted to be established by Government) and a current faith school, lets use a catholic one as an example. This is based entirely on current law:

Existing catholic faith school (e.g. an academy)

1. Can discriminate in admissions policies to give preference to catholics or admit only catholics
2. Can advertise all posts with being a practising catholic as an essential job requirement
3. Can require all governors to be practising catholics
4. Can use wide ranging 'adherence to ethos' requirements within disciplinary processes for all staff even if activity is a private matter - e.g. a member of staff separates from their spouse.
5. Can teach an RE curriculum that focussed exclusively on their religious beliefs, in line with the tenets of their faith.
6. Can include daily acts of worship of their faith (if this were a jewish faith school, they could replace basic requirement for christian worship with jewish worship
7. Can have their own separate inspection system established by their church to inspect the ethos and RE/faith aspects of the school, but paid for by the tax payer.
8. School funded 100% from state funding.

Hypothetical humanist school (e.g. a free school)

1. Cannot discriminate whatsoever in admissions policies to give preference to humanists or admit only humanists (to do so would be breaking the law)
2. Cannot advertise all posts with being a humanist as an essential job requirement (to do so would be breaking the law) - the only exception being senior staff under genuine occupational requirement as applies to all employers - would only be permitted to be worded as adherence to ethos, not being (for example) a member of humanist UK
3. Cannot require parent/staff governors to be humanists
4. Cannot use wide ranging 'adherence to ethos' requirements within disciplinary processes for all staff even if activity is a private matter - e.g. a member of staff separates from their spouse. (to do so would be breaking the law)
5. Cannot create a curriculum in line with the tenets of their belief, e.g. by replacing RE with a humanist curriculum.
6. Must include a daily act of worship of a broadly christian nature
7. Cannot have their own separate inspection system established by humanist UK (for example) to inspect the ethos and aspects of the school - inspection entirely by independent Ofsted inspectors.
8. School funded 100% from state funding.

Perhaps you might begin to understand what we mean by special privileges for religion, Vlad.

Why would any school wish to replace objective teaching of RE especially Humanist UK and NSS who have apparently
campaigned on this very ticket.

What is a humanist curriculum?

[ProfessorDavey]

Humanist schools are permitted.

Are they Vlad - the way you would prove that it to point to an existing humanist school. But you can't, because there aren't any.

As far as I am aware the only free schools that have been allowed to be created with a distinct ethos are where that ethos is either religious or specific educational philosophies (e.g. Steiner, Montessori).

[ProfessorDavey]

Why would any school wish to replace objective teaching of RE especially Humanist UK and NSS who have apparently
campaigned on this very ticket.

Why would any schools want to replace objective teaching of RE involving not partisan comparisons between major religions with this:

http://www.catholiceducation.org.uk/images/RECD_2012.pdf

But nearly 2000 state funded schools in England and Wales do.

[ProfessorDavey]

Why would any school wish to replace objective teaching of RE especially Humanist UK and NSS who have apparently
campaigned on this very ticket.

I am not saying they would want to - what I am saying is that they are not allowed to even if they wanted to.

By contrast faith schools can develop their own RE curriculum that can be as biased as they like and focus pretty well entirely on just their faith. And they have the right to refuse to have this aspect of the school inspected by the normal Ofsted inspectors, but to appoint their own inspectors. Talk about conflict of interest.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are they Vlad - the way you would prove that it to point to an existing humanist school. But you can't, because there aren't any.

As far as I am aware the only free schools that have been allowed to be created with a distinct ethos are where that ethos is either religious or specific educational philosophies (e.g. Steiner, Montessori).

Yes there aren't any because the Humanist refuse to set up schools...in order to complain they can't set up schools ?

Secondly You have been selective in your drawing from the government guidelines. Let me supply a fuller version of your second paragraph.

''Faith free schools, free schools with a distinctive educational philosophy or world view (including Steiner, Montessori and Maharishi) and integrated free schools If you are proposing to set up a faith free school (either a school with a faith ethos or a school designated as having a religious character12), or a free school with a distinctive educational philosophy or world view, you should note that:  • All free schools are expected to be inclusive, including those with a designated faith or faith ethos. The requirement is tested rigorously at every stage of assessment and ‘pre-opening’ as well as after schools open;''

source:https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/579906/Info-How_to_apply_to_set_up_a_free_school_guidance.pdf

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes there aren't any because the Humanist refuse to set up schools...in order to complain they can't set up schools ?

So can you provide an examples of any other free schools set up with a distinctive world view that isn't a distinctive educational philosophy or religious faith. Just because HumanistsUK don't want to establish schools surely other non religious, not educational philosophy distinctive world view people might.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why would any schools want to replace objective teaching of RE involving not partisan comparisons between major religions with this:

http://www.catholiceducation.org.uk/images/RECD_2012.pdf

But nearly 2000 state funded schools in England and Wales do.

Well then we agree on the objective teaching of RE then unless the Humanist approach is for the teacher to shout ''There is no god' every thirty seconds.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So can you provide an examples of any other free schools set up with a distinctive world view that isn't a distinctive educational philosophy or religious faith. Just because HumanistsUK don't want to establish schools surely other non religious, not educational philosophy distinctive world view people might.

The provision is there for distinctive world views or maybe even world views. It's in the guidelines.
Why did you not mention world views in your post?

[ProfessorDavey]

The provision is there for distinctive world views or maybe even world views. It's in the guidelines.
Why did you not mention world views in your post?

But the world views they give as examples are in fact educational philosophies (Steiner, Montessori and Maharishi).

Actually more recent guidance further de-emphasises world view. This from the New Schools Network (the organisation set up to support government in the establishment of free schools) from Nov 2017. Section heading:

'Applicants proposing a school with a religious character or religious ethos or a distinctive educational philosophy'

As far as I can see world view is considered to be synonymous with educational philosophy.

Can you provide an example of a free school set up with a distinctive world view that isn't either a religious character or ethos or a distinctive educational philosophy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the world views they give as examples are in fact educational philosophies (Steiner, Montessori and Maharishi).

No, they acknowledge educational philosophies and outline them. And they mention schools of a distinctive world view.
It's there in blue and black.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, they acknowledge educational philosophies and outline them. And they mention schools of a distinctive world view.
It's there in blue and black.

So come on then please provide me with some examples of free schools that the government has permitted to be set up which have a distinct ethos based on a worldview that isn't either a religion or a educational philosophy.

They may exist - I'm not aware of any.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So come on then please provide me with some examples of free schools that the government has permitted to be set up which have a distinct ethos based on a worldview that isn't either a religion or a educational philosophy.

Irrelevent to whether they are legal.

[ProfessorDavey]

Irrelevent to whether they are legal.

Not at all - given that they are only legal if the government approves them. You have failed to provide any evidence that the government is actually prepared to approve free schools that have a distinct ethos based on a worldview that isn't either a religion or a educational philosophy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not at all - given that they are only legal if the government approves them. You have failed to provide any evidence that the government is actually prepared to approve free schools that have a distinct ethos based on a worldview that isn't either a religion or a educational philosophy.

You provided the evidence by providing the guidlines where it mentions schools of a distinctive world view.
Charities can also found free schools.
Have applications for schools with a distinctive world view or world view been turned down on those grounds?

[ProfessorDavey]

You provided the evidence by providing the guidlines where it mentions schools of a distinctive world view.
Charities can also found free schools.
Have applications for schools with a distinctive world view or world view been turned down on those grounds?

I have no idea - I'm not the one making the claim that these schools exist or can exist.

The onus is on you to demonstrate their existence.

All we can say otherwise is that the guidance theoretically allows applications to be made for such schools - we have no evidence that any such schools have actually been approved. We do have evidence that religious faith free schools have been approved and that free schools with a distinctive educational philosophy have been approved.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I have no idea - I'm not the one making the claim that these schools exist or can exist.

The onus is on you to demonstrate their existence.

All we can say otherwise is that the guidance theoretically allows applications to be made for such schools - we have no evidence that any such schools have actually been approved. We do have evidence that religious faith free schools have been approved and that free schools with a distinctive educational philosophy have been approved.

So what is your position. There are no humanist schools because they are not allowed or because they have not exercised their rights to. I say the latter and have provided the link to my evidence.

We also have a Government document which you suggested which gives guidance to those applying to start Free schools. There is advice to groups hoping to start schools of a distinctive world view or world view.

I will leave it to readers to decided whether the Government are holding back humanist schools or indeed schools of a distinctive world view or world view. but IMV there seems to be no reason why they cannot be other than the will to set them up.

I shall be looking out with interest at the question but in my own time. You are welcome to wait. fingers crossed for any info but I am not working to a timescale.

[ProfessorDavey]

Have applications for schools with a distinctive world view or world view been turned down on those grounds?

Actually if you go here (I know it is the Humanist UK site)

https://humanism.org.uk/2015/02/13/first-time-government-provides-bha-names-free-school-applicants-prior-deciding-open/

And click on the first link you can download a spreadsheet of free school applications to that date.

As far as I can see there are virtually no applications with a 'religion or belief' (column D) that are neither religious or educational philosophy. The only ones I can see are applications from Sri Aurobindo And The Mother's Children in waves 7 and 9 (described as spiritual world view in wave 9). From what I can see all were rejected.

By contrast there are loads of applications from religious or educational philosophy, many of which have been approved.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Actually if you go here (I know it is the Humanist UK site)

https://humanism.org.uk/2015/02/13/first-time-government-provides-bha-names-free-school-applicants-prior-deciding-open/

And click on the first link you can download a spreadsheet of free school applications to that date.

As far as I can see there are virtually no applications with a 'religion or belief' (column D) that are neither religious or educational philosophy. The only ones I can see are applications from Sri Aurobindo And The Mother's Children in waves 7 and 9 (described as spiritual world view in wave 9). From what I can see all were rejected.

By contrast there are loads of applications from religious or educational philosophy, many of which have been approved.

What ground were they turned down on?
Why is looking at a list of applications to 2013 of any use. Surely 2018?
Freeschools are turned down all the time I would imagine I was just reading about a faith school that was turned down. The humanist UK or NSS have not put forward any application I take it?

[ProfessorDavey]

So what is your position. There are no humanist schools because they are not allowed or because they have not exercised their rights to. I say the latter and have provided the link to my evidence.

They are only allowed if the government approves them. Therefore the way to provide this beyond doubt is to find a 'world view' school application that has been approved.

As far as I am aware there are none. That may be because there have been very few applications (we know there have been some), and that those applications were weak. However we still have no evidence that the government has ever approved a school in the free school programme with a distinctive ethos that isn't either religious of educational philosophy.

[ProfessorDavey]

What ground were they turned down on?
Why is looking at a list of applications to 2013 of any use. Surely 2018?
Freeschools are turned down all the time I would imagine I was just reading about a faith school that was turned down. The humanist UK or NSS have not put forward any application I take it?

The full details are available here

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/free-school-applications

As far as I can see there have been a tiny number of applications from schools with a designated ethos that isn't religious or educational philosophy but all have been rejected.

We already know that neither the NSS or Humanist UK have applied as it doesn't align with their vision education.

However, do remember that the free school programme is supposed to encourage applications from all sorts of people, groups etc (partly via the New Schools Network). There is very little evidence that the government are actively encouraging schools with designated ethos that isn't religious or educational philosophy. They are very clearly encouraging applications with a religious ethos and seem very supportive of applications with a distinct educational philosophy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

They are only allowed if the government approves them. Therefore the way to provide this beyond doubt is to find a 'world view' school application that has been approved.

As far as I am aware there are none. That may be because there have been very few applications (we know there have been some), and that those applications were weak. However we still have no evidence that the government has ever approved a school in the free school programme with a distinctive ethos that isn't either religious of educational philosophy.

What document forbids schools of a distinctive world view from applying for free school status?
If there are none we needn't immediately imply that the government forbids them. That would be contrary to their guidelines.
Secondly it is a mistake to claim that the government forbids such schools because applications are turned down since the world view is presumably not the only consideration.
And it remains that Humanist UK deliberately refrain from exercising any rights whatsoever.

[ProfessorDavey]

What document forbids schools of a distinctive world view from applying for free school status?

Where did I ever say it did - stop misrepresenting me.

What I have said is that a right to apply (anyone can apply - you or I could) doesn't indicate that the government will approve that school. And the only way we can be sure that those schools are legal is when (or if) we have evidence that an application has been made and has been approved.

Currently that isn't the case. There is currently no example of an application for a free school with a designated ethos that isn't religious or educational philosophy that has been successful. There are a small number that have been unsuccessful.

In all other categories (schools without a designated ethos, and those with a designated ethos that is religious or educational philosophy) there are examples of successful applications.