Author Topic: Prominent antitheist suspended  (Read 17771 times)

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2018, 10:25:51 AM »
Maeght,

Quote
I can guess that by linking someone who is a self iddntified antitheistcwith such behaviour Private Fraser thinks this casts doubt on the ethical arguments out forward by antitheists. This is a guess but like to know then that can be discussed.

He's such a tease isn't he. Not only is there apparently an "issue" (only he won't tell us what it is) but there's more to come it seems when some of us decide which "side" of this mysterious issue we're on. As the charges against Krauss appear to have bugger all to do with his physics, cosmology, published works, antitheism, atheism, humanism or anything else connected with his professional output I guess poor Vladdo's either going to have to man up and admit the slur or keep floundering.

I'm pretty sure I know which one he'll pick though.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2018, 10:28:25 AM »
If he is linked to that behaviour what has that to do with me?

You linked his behaviour with being an antitheist. He is many other things but you chose to make that link.

Quote
In any case the allegations are under investigation although other prominent atheists and secularist organisations have stated changes in their relationship with him.

So?

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2018, 10:32:42 AM »
Maeght,

He's such a tease isn't he. Not only is there apparently an "issue" (only he won't tell us what it is) but there's more to come it seems when some of us decide which "side" of this mysterious issue we're on. As the charges against Krauss appear to have bugger all to do with his physics, cosmology, published works, antitheism, atheism, humanism or anything else connected with his professional output I guess poor Vladdo's either going to have to man up and admit the slur or keep floundering.

I'm pretty sure I know which one he'll pick though.

I think part of ther problem is that in someway there is an equivalence between theism and atheism in regard to being 'sides'. I am an atheist but bbeyindcthat have no association with this individual. Talk of atheist communities and the like baffle me, as does the idea of people like Dawkins being seen as leaders of an atheist movement.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2018, 10:51:09 AM »
I think part of ther problem is that in someway there is an equivalence between theism and atheism in regard to being 'sides'. I am an atheist but bbeyindcthat have no association with this individual. Talk of atheist communities and the like baffle me, as does the idea of people like Dawkins being seen as leaders of an atheist movement.
The term atheist community describes the atheist posse on religious ethics the leader of which is pretty obvious.

I wonder if what you are expressing is the dissolution of collective atheism.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2018, 10:53:29 AM »
You linked his behaviour with being an antitheist.
I have said the allegations are under investigation so what behaviour are you talking about?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 10:58:02 AM by Private Frazer »

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2018, 11:10:01 AM »
The term atheist community describes the atheist posse on religious ethics the leader of which is pretty obvious.

I haven't a clue who you mean or, for that matter, what you're blabbering on about.

I wonder if what you are expressing is the dissolution of collective atheism.

I wasn't aware that "collective atheism" was ever a thing...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2018, 11:16:12 AM »


I wasn't aware that "collective atheism" was ever a thing...
Quick lads, scarper......? Ha ha ha.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2018, 12:45:18 PM »
I have said the allegations are under investigation so what behaviour are you talking about?

It is not the behaviour I am talking about, its that you chose to describe him as an antitheist thereby linking the alleged behaviour with his antitheism.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2018, 12:45:52 PM »
The term atheist community describes the atheist posse on religious ethics the leader of which is pretty obvious.

I wonder if what you are expressing is the dissolution of collective atheism.

No such thing.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2018, 01:30:21 PM »
What a disappointing thread, reminds me of the Python sketch where a chap pays for  an argument then has to argue about whether he is having an argument or not, then whether it is good argument ...

The original Buzzfeed article has more information than the Times article linked in the OP. To my mind, it lays out the issues:

The behaviour of Krauss and/or other atheist/sceptic campaigners undermines their arguments that the scientific method can provide a basis for morality and  that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias”.

These types of behaviour and attitudes he is accused of bring science itself into disrepute and fosters distrust and ridicule of it.

On the other hand: Maybe it is all fine, and we can continue with the long tradition of "science" conferences arranged to allow prominent figures to hook up with younger hopefuls?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64321
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2018, 01:41:38 PM »
What a disappointing thread, reminds me of the Python sketch where a chap pays for  an argument then has to argue about whether he is having an argument or not, then whether it is good argument ...

The original Buzzfeed article has more information than the Times article linked in the OP. To my mind, it lays out the issues:

The behaviour of Krauss and/or other atheist/sceptic campaigners undermines their arguments that the scientific method can provide a basis for morality and  that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias”.

These types of behaviour and attitudes he is accused of bring science itself into disrepute and fosters distrust and ridicule of it.

On the other hand: Maybe it is all fine, and we can continue with the long tradition of "science" conferences arranged to allow prominent figures to hook up with younger hopefuls?
Has he made the case that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias”.? Even if he has his behaviour then would simply be an ad hominem fallacy. It neither validates or  invalidates the argument. And if it creates disrepute for science then Thar's just irrational. He isn't science. It doesn't affect whether what he has published is right or wrong.

And all the science aspect wouldn't explain what it has to do with being antitheist.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:50:11 PM by Nearly Sane »

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2018, 01:48:08 PM »
Yes, I'm curious about the quote that science overcomes misogyny.  Any link to that quote?
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2018, 01:51:39 PM »
Yes, I'm curious about the quote that science overcomes misogyny.  Any link to that quote?
Actually, I just copied the quote from the Buzzfeed article.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64321
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2018, 01:55:30 PM »
Yes, I'm curious about the quote that science overcomes misogyny.  Any link to that quote?
Even if it's a direct quote from Krauss, so what? It would be a stupid thing to say, but wouldn't affect whether his science was good. Personally I've always been iffy about him since the Epstein business but so what? My personal feelings about people don't mean I think everything they are associated with is then judged with those feelings.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 02:01:05 PM by Nearly Sane »

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2018, 01:58:18 PM »
Has he made the case that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias”.? Even if he has his behaviour then would simply be an ad hominem fallacy. It neither validates or  invalidates the argument. And if it creates disrepute for science then Thar's just irrational. He isn't science. It doesn't affect whether what he has published is right or wrong.

And all the science aspect wouldn't explain what it has to do with being antitheist.

Rightly or wrongly these are often conflated.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64321
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2018, 01:59:40 PM »
Rightly or wrongly these are often conflated.
That would be 'wrongly'

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2018, 02:08:04 PM »
Even if it's a direct quote from Krauss, so what? It would be a stupid thing to say, but wouldn't affect whether his science was good. Personally I've always been iffy about him since the Epstein business but so what? My personal feelings about people don't mean I think everything they are associated with is then judged with those feelings.
Right, but isn't that the point: The output and actions of those proclaiming their own dispassionate objectivity and rationality, such as scientists pushing a methodology or philosophy, must be subject to the the same level of sceptical analysis as those of any religious or political campaigners.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2018, 02:11:17 PM »
Udayana,

Quote
What a disappointing thread, reminds me of the Python sketch where a chap pays for  an argument then has to argue about whether he is having an argument or not, then whether it is good argument ...

How could it be other than disappointing given what it is – a slur by association?

Quote
The original Buzzfeed article has more information than the Times article linked in the OP. To my mind, it lays out the issues:

The behaviour of Krauss and/or other atheist/sceptic campaigners undermines their arguments that the scientific method can provide a basis for morality and  that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias”.

First, how does the behaviour of someone making an argument undermine the merits of the argument? Would a murderer who argues, “murder is wrong” invalidate his argument because he’s a murderer?

Second, who argues that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias” in any case, and how?

Quote
These types of behaviour and attitudes he is accused of bring science itself into disrepute and fosters distrust and ridicule of it.

Only if people are stupid or unpleasant enough to conflate the science with the people doing it (see the OP for an example of the eror). Does great music for example somehow become less great if you find out the composer was a proto nazi?

Quote
On the other hand: Maybe it is all fine, and we can continue with the long tradition of "science" conferences arranged to allow prominent figures to hook up with younger hopefuls?

That’s as grotesque a distortion as Vlad’s OP. First, they’re just science conferences, not “science” conferences as you slyly imply; second, “hooking up with younger hopefuls” as you put it is an entirely stand alone matter from the science, and indeed from conferences in general.

Shame on you.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64321
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2018, 02:12:02 PM »
Right, but isn't that the point: The output and actions of those proclaiming their own dispassionate objectivity and rationality, such as scientists pushing a methodology or philosophy, must be subject to the the same level of sceptical analysis as those of any religious or political campaigners.
Has anyone suggested they shouldn't?

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2018, 02:28:43 PM »
Science won't overcome mysogony.

This thread has been more about PF trying to make a point but not saying what that was clearly so it could be discussed.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2018, 02:32:57 PM »
Udayana,

How could it be other than disappointing given what it is – a slur by association?

First, how does the behaviour of someone making an argument undermine the merits of the argument? Would a murderer who argues, “murder is wrong” invalidate his argument because he’s a murderer?

Second, who argues that “Science itself overcomes misogyny and prejudice and bias” in any case, and how?

Only if people are stupid or unpleasant enough to conflate the science with the people doing it (see the OP for an example of the eror). Does great music for example somehow become less great if you find out the composer was a proto nazi?

That’s as grotesque a distortion as Vlad’s OP. First, they’re just science conferences, not “science” conferences as you slyly imply; second, “hooking up with younger hopefuls” as you put it is an entirely stand alone matter from the science, and indeed from conferences in general.

Shame on you.
As long as people understand that attending science conferences, atheist meetings or whatever,  is no different to attending any other large gathering of people, that is fine. My impression is that many do not, hence the accusations and issues reported.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2018, 02:38:44 PM »
There was never any attack on science on this thread. That is a red herring.

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2018, 02:41:39 PM »
Right, but isn't that the point: The output and actions of those proclaiming their own dispassionate objectivity and rationality, such as scientists pushing a methodology or philosophy, must be subject to the the same level of sceptical analysis as those of any religious or political campaigners.

Of course they should. Anyone who seems to show that their own lack of objectivity and rationality is undermining their arguments should be subject to rigorous sceptical analysis. However the methodology/philosophy/religion/politics that they are advocating should always be subject to rigorous analysis too, as it stands or falls, not on the person proclaiming it, but on the arguments and evidence inherent/associated with that which they are proclaiming.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2018, 02:42:30 PM »
Has anyone suggested they shouldn't?
The responses on this thread will not go down in the annals of skepticism since it looks like an attempt to shoot the messenger and move swiftly on .There was even a post suggesting that We write this off.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64321
Re: Prominent antitheist suspended
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2018, 02:43:20 PM »
As long as people understand that attending science conferences, atheist meetings or whatever,  is no different to attending any other large gathering of people, that is fine. My impression is that many do not, hence the accusations and issues reported.
sorry, not sure what you are saying here. What do you think 'many' think about science conferences that lead to the accusations and issues reported?