Come on Poland

[Gonnagle]

Dear Wigs,

Thank you, but I am not arguing about the way that country is heading, simply on my soapbox regarding this 24/7 culture and how it affects or environment.

Gonnagle.

[Robbie]

thank goodness, a return to restrictive practices on a Sunday is one thing that is vanishingly unlikely to be brought back.

If those who wish such an extremely backward step were to be consistent, then they should campaign for electrical and gas power to be switched off, no public transport to run, there would be no police on duty, no-one stacking shelves ready for Monday, no bakers preparing bread for the Monday sales, etc.

Absolutely right!
It is lovely to have shops open on a Sunday, I wouldn't go back to how it used to be for anything, even though we managed - didn't know any different at the time. Now we do & for most of us, it's better.

Yes we can take our plastic wrappings home with us, I always do anyway whether it's Thursday or Sunday.

Ippy:- "...wee mother working on a Sunday trying to gain a bit more income, because her spouse would more likely to be at home and able to look after the children, we all know how hard it is on the income bringing up children ..."

Quite.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

You didn't seem to want to face the fact that what you are proposing would be marginal compared with other measures. You've mentioned your ideas about a day off elsewhere. Your motivation would appear to be a day off for everyone first and saving the planet next.

No I did face the fact, and in what way is my way marginal, no sorry save the planet first and not a day off for everyone, everyone can't have a day off, I work most weekends myself.

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

Oh sorry did I misquote you, oh dear, dearie dearie me, is this the bit where I am accused of lying because I failed to quote you word for word, God in Govan give me strength, you would rather pick little misquotes instead of engaging in serious debate.

Gonnagle.

Not a minor misquote Gonners.

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear Robbie,

It is lovely to have shops open on a Sunday,

Aye it gives me a rosy glow all over

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Not a minor misquote Gonners.

All right, sorry but there was nothing underhanded intended.

Gonnagle.

[SweetPea]

I'm with you on this one, Gonners.

We live in a 24/7/52 world where mammon is a god. We are encouraged to shop, shop, shop; buy, buy, buy; and work ourselves to death. Then people get themselves into debt, take out a loan, land themselves in more debt which can destroy marriages and lives.

Not that long ago the 60s(?) and before, shops opened at 9am and closed at 6pm or earlier. Everyone managed be they shift workers or not. Then came buying on credit (we used to call it 'the never-never') and folk wanted more and more, but it was a trap and so easy to fall into and the fat controllers knew that.

Anyone who has not read Orwell's 1984 should do so because it helps in understanding how society works. 

[Gordon]

Anyone who has not read Orwell's 1984 should do so because it helps in understanding how society works.

So how exactly does Orwell's portrayal of dystopian society in '1984' relate to Sunday trading restrictions in some parts of the UK?

[ippy]

I'm with you on this one, Gonners.

We live in a 24/7/52 world where mammon is a god. We are encouraged to shop, shop, shop; buy, buy, buy; and work ourselves to death. Then people get themselves into debt, take out a loan, land themselves in more debt which can destroy marriages and lives.

Not that long ago the 60s(?) and before, shops opened at 9am and closed at 6pm or earlier. Everyone managed be they shift workers or not. Then came buying on credit (we used to call it 'the never-never') and folk wanted more and more, but it was a trap and so easy to fall into and the fat controllers knew that.

Anyone who has not read Orwell's 1984 should do so because it helps in understanding how society works.

Nobody says you have to join in Peazey, you can stay in your closed loop of a world, for as long as you want to, I doubt if anyone will mind.

Regards ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Apart from the George Orwell part ( which I have never read ) which part of Sweetpeas post do you disagree with, thanks to Gordon and Sane this forum is advert free, go elsewhere on the big WWW and you are bombarded with adverts to buy.

I think Sweetpeas post is bang on, in fact I am almost sure that getting Joe public to part with his hard earned lolly is now a science.

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

Apart from the George Orwell part ( which I have never read ) which part of Sweetpeas post do you disagree with, thanks to Gordon and Sane this forum is advert free, go elsewhere on the big WWW and you are bombarded with adverts to buy.

I think Sweetpeas post is bang on, in fact I am almost sure that getting Joe public to part with his hard earned lolly is now a science.

Gonnagle.

Virtually al of Sweetie's post, I prefer to live in the real world where we use reason to solve problems etc.

The only problem I can see pertaining to this thread is the bunch of control freek posters that seem to think they have some sort of manual/guide of their own that gives them some right to direct or judge others by some sort of mystical standard they think this manual/guide gives them, (Manual/bible).

Apart from the above I can't find anything wrong with Sweet Pea's post.

Regards ippy

[Robbie]

I don't understand a lot of the objections. So shops are open every day but does everyone go shopping every day? I wouldn't have thought so, the only difference now is there's more choice about when we shop.

So many stores are closing down, people buy goods online. Shopping centres with family friendly eateries may well be a novelty in a few years.

As for the great god mammon and materialism, people have always wanted a bit more but usually accept what they cannot have at a particular time - hoping next year maybe, when they've saved up. Not everyone is discontented and gets into massive debt.

 

[Enki]

Dear ippy,

Apart from the George Orwell part ( which I have never read ) which part of Sweetpeas post do you disagree with, thanks to Gordon and Sane this forum is advert free, go elsewhere on the big WWW and you are bombarded with adverts to buy.

I think Sweetpeas post is bang on, in fact I am almost sure that getting Joe public to part with his hard earned lolly is now a science.

Gonnagle.

For me, the main part that I disagree with is her depiction of 'the 60s and before' as a time when 'Everyone managed be they shift workers or not.'

I grew up in the 40s and 50s. My mother joined a Christmas Club to afford to buy me school clothes. She never had enough money for anything much.  A special meal(and one which, amazingly I still like), was steamed bacon and potatoes. It was when I was in my middle teens that she could actually afford a top loading washing machine. Until then she had used a copper boiler and a wringer. A telephone was something that you rarely used except in emergencies, because it was a street away.Having a TV was almost unheard of(we rented our first one in the very  late 50s) and we used an old valve wireless to listen to Radio Luxembourg(anyone remember that station?). She was lucky to afford any new clothes for herself, most of what she had, she was given by other people. My sister, who had severe asthma, was taken by my mother to the children's hospital, sometimes by bus, but often by my mother walking the 3 miles or so with my sister in a pram. Central heating was unknown for us, and if, in winter, we ran out of coal, she used to buy slack, and when we couldn't afford that we used to sit in front of a one element disk electric fire, that is if we had enough shillings to put into the electric meter. Our holidays consisted of days out to the nearby seaside, And, in all this time, my father had a steady but not exactly well paid job as a semi skilled fitter at Ideal Standard Boilers. They struggled, rather than managed.

[SweetPea]

Virtually al of Sweetie's post, I prefer to live in the real world where we use reason to solve problems etc.

The only problem I can see pertaining to this thread is the bunch of control freek posters that seem to think they have some sort of manual/guide of their own that gives them some right to direct or judge others by some sort of mystical standard they think this manual/guide gives them, (Manual/bible).

Apart from the above I can't find anything wrong with Sweet Pea's post.

Regards ippy

Ippy, if I'm going to judge anyone it's those I describe as the fat controllers. Have I mentioned the Bible?

enki

For me, the main part that I disagree with is her depiction of 'the 60s and before' as a time when 'Everyone managed be they shift workers or not.'

I'm talking about how we managed in the 60s and before regards Monday to Saturday 9am - 6pm shopping. Otherwise your post is almost a mirror of my own upbringing. My mother had her first top loader washing machine when I was about 10 years old, and like your mother until then she did the washing in a boiler, rinsed the clothes in the bath and then used a wringer. She was washing for six. We had a telephone with a money-box next to it and anyone using the 'phone had to leave a contribution towards the bill.

Yes, buying goods on credit made it easier, but as I say, it could also become a trap.   

[SteveH]

thank goodness, a return to restrictive practices on a Sunday is one thing that is vanishingly unlikely to be brought back.

If those who wish such an extremely backward step were to be consistent, then they should campaign for electrical and gas power to be switched off, no public transport to run, there would be no police on duty, no-one stacking shelves ready for Monday, no bakers preparing bread for the Monday sales, etc.

This is either the slippery slope fallacy or the either/or fallacy.

The "Slippery Slope" Fallacy (also called "The Camel's Nose Fallacy") is a non sequitur in which the speaker argues that, once the first step is undertaken, a second or third step will inevitably follow, much like the way one step on a slippery incline will cause a person to fall and slide all the way to the bottom. It is also called "the Camel's Nose Fallacy" because of the image of a sheik who let his camel stick its nose into his tent on a cold night. The idea is that the sheik is afraid to let the camel stick its nose into the tent because once the beast sticks in its nose, it will inevitably stick in its head, and then its neck, and eventually its whole body. However, this sort of thinking does not allow for any possibility of stopping the process. It simply assumes that, once the nose is in, the rest must follow--that the sheik can't stop the progression once it has begun--and thus the argument is a logical fallacy. For instance, if one were to argue, "If we allow the government to infringe upon our right to privacy on the Internet, it will then feel free to infringe upon our privacy on the telephone. After that, FBI agents will be reading our mail. Then they will be placing cameras in our houses. We must not let any governmental agency interfere with our Internet communications, or privacy will completely vanish in the United States." Such thinking is fallacious; no logical proof has been provided yet that infringement in one area will necessarily lead to infringement in another, no more than a person buying a single can of Coca-Cola in a grocery store would indicate the person will inevitably go on to buy every item available in the store, helpless to stop herself. So remember to avoid the slippery slope fallacy; once you use one, you may find yourself using more and more logical fallacies.

Either/Or Fallacy (also called "the Black-and-White Fallacy," "Excluded Middle," "False Dilemma," or "False Dichotomy"): This fallacy occurs when a writer builds an argument upon the assumption that there are only two choices or possible outcomes when actually there are several. Outcomes are seldom so simple. This fallacy most frequently appears in connection to sweeping generalizations: “Either we must ban X or the American way of life will collapse.” "We go to war with Canada, or else Canada will eventually grow in population and overwhelm the United States." "Either you drink Burpsy Cola, or you will have no friends and no social life." Either you must avoid either/or fallacies, or everyone will think you are foolish.

From https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html

[Enki]

Ippy, if I'm going to judge anyone it's those I describe as the fat controllers. Have I mentioned the Bible?

enki

I'm talking about how we managed in the 60s and before regards Monday to Saturday 9am - 6pm shopping. Otherwise your post is almost a mirror of my own upbringing. My mother had her first top loader washing machine when I was about 10 years old, and like your mother until then she did the washing in a boiler, rinsed the clothes in the bath and then used a wringer. She was washing for six. We had a telephone with a money-box next to it and anyone using the 'phone had to leave a contribution towards the bill.

Yes, buying goods on credit made it easier, but as I say, it could also become a trap.

And we 'manage' or 'struggle' now, depending on our incomes, and how we use those incomes. What on earth has increased shopping hours got to do with anything you've said? If we want to 'shop, shop, shop' we can easily do it between the hours of 9 and 6 now on any weekday. We can also use the internet at any hour of any day for shopping(and, increasingly, we are doing just that).  I fail to see that increasing the hours of Sunday shopping is going to have any marked effect on any of the things that you are complaining about.

By increasing the hours when shops are able to open on a Sunday just makes it that bit more convenient for the customer, and, given sensible safeguards for the shop employees, I suggest that that is surely a good thing.

[torridon]

Dear Wigs,

Thank you, but I am not arguing about the way that country is heading, simply on my soapbox regarding this 24/7 culture and how it affects or environment.

Gonnagle.

I don't think we can address those problems by imposing a monoculture, that would be regressive.  Better surely to win hearts and minds through better investment in research and education

[ProfessorDavey]

A terribly regressive suggestion.

I really wish that England would pull itself into the 21stC just as Scotland has and allow shops to open as they wish on a Sunday. As a busy person it is pretty common to get frustrated at having to wait until 10am (or even 11am) for shops to open and then use the middle part of the day if there is shopping needed, effectively preventing other stuff from happening.

The Sunday just gone was a good case in point - no chance of getting to the shops on Saturday for all sorts of reasons. Sunday we were in London all day - it would have been good to have been able to pop into the shops at about 9am to sort a few things, but of course they weren't open.

I would like to be able to a plan my shopping around the rest of my life, rather than having to plan the rest of my life around my shopping.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't think we can address those problems by imposing a monoculture, that would be regressive.  Better surely to win hearts and minds through better investment in research and education

Are you suggesting there's no such thing as society?

[torridon]

Are you suggesting there's no such thing as society?

A good society would try to cater for its inherent diversity, not impose the will of the majority as a one size fits all

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A good society would try to cater for its inherent diversity, not impose the will of the majority as a one size fits all

What do you suppose the law does?

[torridon]

What do you suppose the law does?

Protect people from harm.  The law should not be in the business of restricting civil liberties.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

And your post opens up that other bug bear of mine, I know I am stating the obvious but Nurses work 12 hour shifts, we are going backwards instead of forward.

As Sweetpea has mentioned, we are all working our ass's off to pay the man, mortgages, pensions, helping our kids get the best education, where is this leisurely society we were all promised.

This is supposed to be the 21st century, everyone should have plenty of time Mon-Fri to go shopping.

I have just had a look on lonely planet, seems the Norwegians are once again way ahead of us in looking after their citizens, major stores are closed, but you can have a leisurely pint.

Those pesky Germans are at it too, shops closed on Sundays but little shops can open.

Bloody Germans and Norwegians, a right bunch of religious numpty's.

Come on GB, lets admit we made a mistake, 24/7 shopping should be banned.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.

This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Torridon,

Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.

This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.

Gonnagle.

Yes I was going to ask Torridon whether being able to make people fag for you was a civil liberty.