Come on Poland

[Aruntraveller]

Dear Torridon,

Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.

This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.

Gonnagle.

Yes but some people might want to work through the night. I'm not disagreeing necessarily with the idea that we need to change things, but at the same time you are arguing for a cut in the work available for people. And it may surprise you to know but  the people who work in places like ASDA don't work all the time.

They have things like shifts and rotas. Revolutionary ideas I know, but I understand they do exist.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

What I am arguing for is a fairer society, give everyone a chance to stop and smell the roses, oh and highlighting the fact we are polluting this little world and 24/7 shopping is a main contributor.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

Dear Trent,

What I am arguing for is a fairer society, give everyone a chance to stop and smell the roses, oh and highlighting the fact we are polluting this little world and 24/7 shopping is a main contributor.

Gonnagle.

I understand that Gonners but I'm not sure giving people less opportunities for employment will lead to a fairer society. As to polluting the world, totally agree - but we need to be more aggressive at changing the suppliers attitudes. Boycott certain goods until they adopt greener packaging. I was watching a bit on some programme yesterday about how the Italians have come up with biodegradable coffee pods - you know the plastic things that you stick in fancy coffee machines that currently last for squillions of years, well they have developed a process where by the pods degrade totally within 56 days I think. We need more of this.

And the last time we had a go round on Sunday trading I was firmly on the side of having a more peaceful day - but I find it hard to argue against others who say why should I not have the opportunity on Sunday to go shopping, so I think we need to fight for a more sustainable way of life and balance that with the need to respect other people's choices in the way they choose to spend their Sunday's - or indeed their middle of the nights.

And just bringing it back to Poland you did specifically ask about Poland politically at the beginning of the thread. Go live there. It is not and never will be the paradise you want because of no trading on a Sunday.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

I understand that Gonners but I'm not sure giving people less opportunities for employment will lead to a fairer society. As to polluting the world, totally agree - but we need to be more aggressive at changing the suppliers attitudes. Boycott certain goods until they adopt greener packaging. I was watching a bit on some programme yesterday about how the Italians have come up with biodegradable coffee pods - you know the plastic things that you stick in fancy coffee machines that currently last for squillions of years, well they have developed a process where by the pods degrade totally within 56 days I think. We need more of this.

Less opportunities for employment? I would start with scrapping the 12 hour working day.

more aggressive at changing the suppliers attitudes.

Definitely, lets start with no large stores open on a Sunday, that would hit the profits of the likes of Tesco and Asda, I have read that these stores ( other stores are available ) have a huge influence over suppliers.

well they have developed a process where by the pods degrade totally within 56 days I think.

Totally agree we need more of this, but banning Sunday trading until everybody wakes up and starts thinking about the amount of plastic we throw away each year, and yes I am talking about taking away this civil liberty Torridon speaks of, where is the liberty for this planet, where is the civil liberty for our children, we don't own this planet we hold it in trust for future generations.

And just bringing it back to Poland you did specifically ask about Poland politically at the beginning of the thread. Go live there. It is not and never will be the paradise you want because of no trading on a Sunday.

Fair enough old son   Using Poland as a role model was wrong, and I will agree, the reason they are doing it has a lot to do with religion.

And if I am honest, my reason is also religious, the Second greatest Commandment according to Our Lord Jesus Christ and I think God gave us this little planet not to destroy but to hold for future generations.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

You'll forgive me if I give a slightly sarcastic humpff to the idea that Christianity, the way it is practiced now, in any way promotes care for the planet.

We have leaders of supposedly Christian nations who proclaim their supposed Christianity loud and clear who seem able to walk with your God on the one hand and the God of Mammon on the other.

A religious reason for the restriction of shopping hours does not cut it. Concern for the planet might but I am not convinced enough people are sufficiently bothered when they have all on coping with surviving day to day. I would suggest you aren't going to worry about cling film on your cheap food if it helps you feed your family. I know that is a short term view and that is the real issue we need to address in this world the absolutely frightening reality that the human race so seldom looks beyond the end of its nose.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You'll forgive me if I give a slightly sarcastic humpff to the idea that Christianity, the way it is practiced now, in any way promotes care for the planet.

It seems to me the humpfing off of Christianity has not resulted in the golden life humpfing off Christianity promised.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

I agree with your post, well I don't see much to argue against, and I think you sort of agree with me, and just for your info, Second Greatest commandment, Matthew 22:36-40, I would think you would agree with Our Lord.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

It seems to me the humpfing off of Christianity has not resulted in the golden life humpfing off Christianity promised.

Oh for goodness sake read my post before you post crap in return.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

And your post opens up that other bug bear of mine, I know I am stating the obvious but Nurses work 12 hour shifts, we are going backwards instead of forward.

But nurses have always worked those kinds of shifts, so we aren't going backwards, merely not going forwards.

But I fail to see what this has to do with being able to shop at a time convenient to fit around the rest of my life, rather than being dictate to that I cannot shop at certain times on a Sunday even if:

1. The shops are happy to open
2. They have staff willing to work those hours (and actually if you have to work a Sunday, surely better to work a full day, rather than just 6 hours)
3. There are customers who want to shop at that time as it best fits in with the other things they want to do with their lives.

[Rhiannon]

I have friends who run an independent shop situated in a complex of converted barns in the countryside. Theirs is mostly handmade crafts; fellow traders are either artists or traders in vintage/antiques/second hand, everything from clothing to home wares to computer games - can’t get greener than that except not wearing clothes /buying games at all. Sunday is their biggest day for trade as people go to the centre for lunch and then browse the shops, all in a lovely countryside setting.

Yet this ‘day or rest’ idea would cripple their businesses, which operate at tight margins at the best of times. Great.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

I have absolutely no problem with that concept, one of the great things about these small traders, they tell you to bring along your own bag, or they have a supply of plastic bags from major stores.

I am not talking about a totalitarian state, lets adopt the Norwegian way or the German way, the closing down of major stores on a Sunday is a wake up call to large retailers and Joe public that we all need to start thinking about the damage we are doing to this planet.

And lets not forget, plastic is only part of the growing problem, their is the palm oil issue which is in most of our products, we are killing our forests to grow this stuff, further, pesticides from farming leaking into our rivers.

The major players and the ordinary citizen need a wake up call, and this wake up needs to be drastic, taking  ( as Torridon calls it ) our civil liberty away is a small price to pay for future generations.

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have absolutely no problem with that concept, one of the great things about these small traders, they tell you to bring along your own bag, or they have a supply of plastic bags from major stores.

Actually that isn't the case - or rather certainly not in England.

The law here means that large retailers must charge for plastic bags which small retailers are still allowed to provide them free. So it is not more typically the case that you'll take your own bags to Tescos (you aren't going to buy  bunch of bags for your big shop), but will happily accept the 'free' bad from a small retailer to top up your supply (as they don't last forever). For small retailers a bag with the shop's name etc is useful marketing.

I think the law should apply equally to all retailers, as is the case in Wales, and I think Scotland. Specifically that you should be charged for a plastic bag in all shops.

[Nearly Sane]

All of this is very laudable, Gonzo. Where's the evidence that this will reduce plastics usage, or indeed palm oil usage? Surely legislation against the use of both of those works better than a symbolic gesture that doesn't seen to be linked to anything to do with that in other countries?


BTW this Friday, there is a second reading of a Private Members Bill at Westminster seeking to stop unpaid work trials. That seems better to me supporting workers rights than something that has no effect on what you are actually seeking to reduce.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/unpaid-work-trials-snp-mp-stewart-mcdonald-private-members-bill-ban-mooboo-bubble-tea-a7843266.html

[Robbie]

It sounds delightful Rhiannon. It's not going to change, far too many of us approve of Sunday trading.

I was reading a few articles about nurses working twelve hour shifts; the general consensus seems to be that it's a good system because they have more consecutive days off. If it didn't work well, for example if it was dangerous, there would be complaints & changes made. Police and firefighters work very long shifts too followed by a few days off, no doubt there are other professions which do the same.

We all need time of rest and relaxation but it doesn't have be on one particular day. Sunday trading gives everyone more freedom to choose their time out. Shop workers aren't complaining about it either.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am not talking about a totalitarian state, lets adopt the Norwegian way or the German way, the closing down of major stores on a Sunday is a wake up call to large retailers and Joe public that we all need to start thinking about the damage we are doing to this planet.

That is total non-sense - unless you can provide evidence that stopping shops opening on Sunday will reduce plastic bag usage.

What we do know is that bringing in charge for bags has had a massive effect. Since its introduction in England plastic bag usage has reduced by 83%. Plus I gather that the more comprehensive charging system in Scotland and Wales has reduced use by over 90%.

Do you really think that stopping shops opening on Sundays is going to reduce use by a similar level. Actually we have the 'control' - Germany - your golden 'no shopping on a Sunday country' - guess what, they are introducing similar charging for bags as we see in the UK.

[torridon]

Dear Torridon,

Civil Liberties!! I have just had a quick google, something about the right to life what about the right to have a life, not working every hour just so you can pop in to ASDA at four in the bloody morning.

This 24/7 society is madness and none of the detractors on this thread are willing to admit it.

Gonnagle.

You could make the case that modern life is stressful; you could also make the case that life was harder two generations ago.  Without getting into that you won't create a better society by restricting freedoms. If you legislate to close shops on a Sunday you are discriminating against people that work Mon - Sat and need Sunday to do their shopping. I don't want to make life harder for people, we need flexibility, choice and diversity, we cannot go back to some 1950's monoculture, that would be regressive.

[torridon]

Yes I was going to ask Torridon whether being able to make people fag for you was a civil liberty.

Is it better to eliminate employment opportunities for people that can and want to work weekends ?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Robbie,

Let me start with you my friend,

I was reading a few articles about nurses working twelve hour shifts; the general consensus seems to be that it's a good system because they have more consecutive days off.

Really! I would love to read this article, where as I work with these heroes everyday, now the youngsters don't mind the twelve hour shifts, but 5/10 years down the line, the are tired, tired at the start of their shift, knackered at the end, or OR, they now only work a couple of shifts a week.

Further, 12 hour shifts are Victorian, Nurses, Doctors in my opinion should only work 6 hours a day.

Further, further, I read they are trialing six hour shifts in Scandinavian countries, why, they are looking at better working conditions, how they can make their staff happier, 12 hour shifts should be scrapped, I see Nurses and Doctors flopped over chairs absolutely knackered from a 12 hour nightshift when I start my very lovely ten hour shift in the morning, I am non essential, Doctors and Nurses are front line totally essential.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

You could make the case that modern life is stressful; you could also make the case that life was harder two generations ago.  Without getting into that you won't create a better society by restricting freedoms. If you legislate to close shops on a Sunday you are discriminating against people that work Mon - Sat and need Sunday to do their shopping. I don't want to make life harder for people, we need flexibility, choice and diversity, we cannot go back to some 1950's monoculture, that would be regressive.

To be fair to Gonzo, I think he isn't, despite the OP, wanting to follow a conservative religious move back to the 50s. His concerns are wider and while I don't see a restriction on Sunday trading as likely to address them, I don't think simply talk about regressive is useful.


If we don't take some actions that in some ways restrictive of public freedom, I suspect we are fucked.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

I had a lengthy reply all typed out, but

If we don't take some actions that in some ways restrictive of public freedom, I suspect we are fucked.

Thank you.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Do you really think that stopping shops opening on Sundays is going to reduce use by a similar level. Actually we have the 'control' - Germany - your golden 'no shopping on a Sunday country' - guess what, they are introducing similar charging for bags as we see in the UK.

Absolutely great, any step to help the planet is needed, Germany taking a leaf out of our book, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Prof,

Absolutely great, any step to help the planet is needed, Germany taking a leaf out of our book, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.

Gonnagle.

But in one case you have evidence, on the other nothing. Germany's restrictions on Sunday trading are not a reaction to use of plastics, nor is there any evidence that introducing such a law would reduce plastic use

[Robbie]

I have close relatives in the medical profession Gonnagle so not completely ignorant.

There are lots of articles from the RCN, NHS and Nursing Times that give the pros and cons of long shifts.

If the people concerned find the shifts too much they will be changed but many like working that way, tiring though it is, because of the time off. I'm inclined to agree with you that a six hour shift is quite enough for one day - but it's not up to me to choose what hours people work, they have professional bodies who work that out & effect changes if necessary.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421/

This is an American one:-
https://www.americannursetoday.com/blog/are-12-hour-shifts-safe/

However going back to the OP which was about Sunday trading in Poland, I wonder why the Polish government is going to ban it for two Sundays per month. I can't believe it has anything to do with plastic pollutants.

[ippy]

Ippy, if I'm going to judge anyone it's those I describe as the fat controllers. Have I mentioned the Bible?

enki

I'm talking about how we managed in the 60s and before regards Monday to Saturday 9am - 6pm shopping. Otherwise your post is almost a mirror of my own upbringing. My mother had her first top loader washing machine when I was about 10 years old, and like your mother until then she did the washing in a boiler, rinsed the clothes in the bath and then used a wringer. She was washing for six. We had a telephone with a money-box next to it and anyone using the 'phone had to leave a contribution towards the bill.

Yes, buying goods on credit made it easier, but as I say, it could also become a trap.

If you wish to live your life like some sort of continual wet weekend of a person, be my guest, I've no wish to stop you and yours following your legal pursuits no matter what I may think, that's how I see things and I don't understand why you and as it seems yours wish to make others conform with your ideas when we don't want to; why.

Regards ippy

[Harrowby Hall]

Further, 12 hour shifts are Victorian, Nurses, Doctors in my opinion should only work 6 hours a day.

It must be great living in Fairyland, Gonners. Get real.

My son is a firefighter - he works 12 hour shifts and he wouldn't have it any other way. He works 4 shifts and then he has, not a measly weekend, but 4 - I repeat -  4 whole days off. That's 4 days he can spend at home, 4 days he can go away for a longer break than a piffling weekend. That's 4 days in a row he can spend with his family. 

In the space of a month it means that he can spend the equivalent of two weeks with his family, not 8 days, which he would if he worked a conventional five day week.  He knows of colleagues who have trained as (say) electricians and who double their income when they are off shift.

So, getting back to NHS workers, you would sooner have the whole system run by part-timers? You do realise, don't you, that when they are not in the hospitals trying to do a job in only half the time available, they will be moonlighting in private hospitals providing private health care on the side and doubling their income?