Come on Poland

[Gonnagle]

Dear Robbie,

However going back to the OP which was about Sunday trading in Poland, I wonder why the Polish government is going to ban it for two Sundays per month. I can't believe it has anything to do with plastic pollutants.

I have already admitted as such, and yes Poland banning Sunday trading I expect has absolutely nothing to do with plastic pollutants, but I expect this will help.

Thank you for your links, they both seem to be American but you talk about governing bodies, for me it should be law that no one, absolutely no one does 12 hour shifts, and I see one of your links mentions patient safety, for me it is a no brainer, I would rather be treated by a well rested Nurse than one that is dead on her feet, one further point, the Scandinavian studies I mentioned, people working only six hour shifts were shown to be more productive.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Harrowby,

So, getting back to NHS workers, you would sooner have the whole system run by part-timers? You do realise, don't you, that when they are not in the hospitals trying to do a job in only half the time available, they will be moonlighting in private hospitals providing private health care on the side and doubling their income?

Cynicism at its best, part timers? no full timers, calling them part timers is your brain washed mind at work, 12 hours is not normal, 12 hours is too long.

And your dig at these professionals, moonlighting!! if they are paid a proper wage, no need for moonlighting.

Gonnagle. 

[Harrowby Hall]

A friend of mine (he died a few years ago) was a consultant gynaecologist. He told me that the standard NHS contract allowed hospital doctors two sessions a week when they could do private work.

Where does this private work take place, I wonder?

[Robbie]

They rent consulting rooms & facilities, including theatre, in private clinics, sometimes share with another doctor, sometimes on an ad hoc basis, depends on how big the practice. My nearest private hospital is the BMI Sloane in Beckenham. Plenty of NHS Hospitals have their own private patient wing, the Lindo Wing at St Mary's Paddington for example.

NHS consultants can work maximum part time hours (which is nearly full time), so they can treat more private patients. A lot of doctors see quite a few patients from overseas & of course they can consult in the evening.

I know all this because my bro-in-law is an orthopaedic surgeon in London; I also had an uncle (mum's sister's husband, now deceased), who was a consultant physician, not in London.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

Absolutely great, any step to help the planet is needed, Germany taking a leaf out of our book, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book.

Gonnagle.

Firstly you have provided no evidence whatsoever that limited shop opening to 6 days a week reduces plastic bag usage - while I have provided very clear evidence that charging for bags is hugely successful in changing behaviour.

But even if you could provide evidence that limiting shop opening to 6 days a week significantly reduces plastic bag usage why should that day be Sunday. Let's ban shop opening on a Tuesday then. Or a Saturday.

[ProfessorDavey]

A friend of mine (he died a few years ago) was a consultant gynaecologist. He told me that the standard NHS contract allowed hospital doctors two sessions a week when they could do private work.

Where does this private work take place, I wonder?

They can alternatively use those 2 session a week to conduct research.

[Harrowby Hall]

Where does this private work take place, I wonder?

Robbie, I was not asking for information. My question was a rhetorical one directed at Gonnagle.

[ippy]

For me, the main part that I disagree with is her depiction of 'the 60s and before' as a time when 'Everyone managed be they shift workers or not.'

I grew up in the 40s and 50s. My mother joined a Christmas Club to afford to buy me school clothes. She never had enough money for anything much.  A special meal(and one which, amazingly I still like), was steamed bacon and potatoes. It was when I was in my middle teens that she could actually afford a top loading washing machine. Until then she had used a copper boiler and a wringer. A telephone was something that you rarely used except in emergencies, because it was a street away.Having a TV was almost unheard of(we rented our first one in the very  late 50s) and we used an old valve wireless to listen to Radio Luxembourg(anyone remember that station?). She was lucky to afford any new clothes for herself, most of what she had, she was given by other people. My sister, who had severe asthma, was taken by my mother to the children's hospital, sometimes by bus, but often by my mother walking the 3 miles or so with my sister in a pram. Central heating was unknown for us, and if, in winter, we ran out of coal, she used to buy slack, and when we couldn't afford that we used to sit in front of a one element disk electric fire, that is if we had enough shillings to put into the electric meter. Our holidays consisted of days out to the nearby seaside, And, in all this time, my father had a steady but not exactly well paid job as a semi skilled fitter at Ideal Standard Boilers. They struggled, rather than managed.

If you take a look at the Monty python 'The Yorkshire Old Men' sketch on YouTube, as a description of how hard it used to be in the old days, you'll find that their description of hard times would have been luxury for me, I had it far harder than they did.

Regards ippy

[Nearly Sane]

Robbie, I was not asking for information. My question was a rhetorical one directed at Gonnagle.

I'm missing the point of the question, rhetorical or otherwise.

[Robbie]

Robbie, I was not asking for information. My question was a rhetorical one directed at Gonnagle.

I'm so sorry HH  .

[Enki]

If you take a look at the Monty python 'The Yorkshire Old Men' sketch on YouTube, as a description of how hard it used to be in the old days, you'll find that their description of hard times would have been luxury for me, I had it far harder than they did.

Regards ippy

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

[Enki]

Like Harrowby, one of my sons is a firefighter. He regularly had 12 hour shifts, and like most of the firefighters he knows, they were happily accepted, because it gave them quite a lot of free time. However, he is now part of an experimental system where he does 24 hour shifts. So far, reaction from the firefighters has been mixed. Obviously it gives them a lot more free time, but 24 hours is a long time to be away from your family. Remember also that it is the law that, except in exceptional circumstances, and for particular jobs, the most that you can work in one week is 48 hours.

Incidentally the average working time per week for full time workers in the UK has come down from 38.1 hours (March to May 1992) to 37.1 hours(Oct to Dec 2017). This compares favourably with the rest of Europe.

 I suggest that  the rights of workers have made huge strides, especially when you compare the average worker in 1870 working 66 hours a week to less than 40 today, and that is not including the huge change in rights and benefits the average worker enjoys. That is not to say that working conditions and benefits shouldn't be improved, but it is a world away from the idea that we are encouraged to 'work ourselves to death' as SweetPea seems to think.

[Nearly Sane]

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

Shopping on a Sunday! When I were young there were no shops! Or Sundays! We didn't even have a sun. Me mam used to pretend to have things like a notion of cheese, that we could pretend to buy wit' pretend money from job that we had to donate a kidney each day to do. And if we ever thought we had bought a notion of cheese wit pretend money, me mam would ritually disembowel us, hersel, ny father and their children even unto the tenth generations with a notion of a rusty implement

[Robbie]

Didn't do us any 'arm! They were grand old days.

[Enki]

Shopping on a Sunday! When I were young there were no shops! Or Sundays! We didn't even have a sun. Me mam used to pretend to have things like a notion of cheese, that we could pretend to buy wit' pretend money from job that we had to donate a kidney each day to do. And if we ever thought we had bought a notion of cheese wit pretend money, me mam would ritually dembowel us, hersel, ny father and their children even unto the tenth generations with a notion of a rusty implement

I like this, not a lot mind, but I like this.

[ippy]

Didn't do us any 'arm! They were grand old days.

I couldn't afford a hole in the ground.

Regards ippy.

P S Bloody Monty Python its stopped me taking a lot of things seriously that I should be taking seriously.

[Robbie]

Never mind a Pole to climb out of it!

[torridon]

To be fair to Gonzo, I think he isn't, despite the OP, wanting to follow a conservative religious move back to the 50s. His concerns are wider and while I don't see a restriction on Sunday trading as likely to address them, I don't think simply talk about regressive is useful.


If we don't take some actions that in some ways restrictive of public freedom, I suspect we are fucked.

If consumerism is the problem, that is a problem of hearts and minds and expectations and I don't see that closing shops would reduce consumerism, it would just add more irritations into an already stressful modern life; people would still consume as much but their shopping patterns would have to alter to meet the inconvenience.  To win people over means taking the public with you through campaigning and education

[ippy]

If consumerism is the problem, that is a problem of hearts and minds and expectations and I don't see that closing shops would reduce consumerism, it would just add more irritations into an already stressful modern life; people would still consume as much but their shopping patterns would have to alter to meet the inconvenience.  To win people over means taking the public with you through campaigning and education

I've been wondering for years, why haven't sucessive governments been pressing the plastics industry to produce biodegradable plastic for as many applications that make as much sense as possible?

We manage to solve so many other problems, surly biodegradable plastic isn't an unsolvable, the local Co-Op has had biodegradable plastic baggs for years.

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

If consumerism is the problem, that is a problem of hearts and minds and expectations and I don't see that closing shops would reduce consumerism, it would just add more irritations into an already stressful modern life; people would still consume as much but their shopping patterns would have to alter to meet the inconvenience.  To win people over means taking the public with you through campaigning and education

I don't think changing Sunday opening hours will make the difference either, which is what I said in the post you replied to. I just don't think there is time to worry about winning hearts and minds here, and besides on one level I think they are already won, However leadership is about doing things and in order to avoid a global tragedy of the commons, I don't see getting people to gradually change behaviour is going to deliver here.

[SteveH]

I couldn't afford a hole in the ground.

Regards ippy.

P S Bloody Monty Python its stopped me taking a lot of things seriously that I should be taking seriously.

'At Last the 1948 Show', I think you'll find.

[torridon]

I don't think changing Sunday opening hours will make the difference either, which is what I said in the post you replied to. I just don't think there is time to worry about winning hearts and minds here, and besides on one level I think they are already won, However leadership is about doing things and in order to avoid a global tragedy of the commons, I don't see getting people to gradually change behaviour is going to deliver here.

I'd agree with that.  But how can disruptive change be effected without public consent.  Trust in the political class and experts is very low, see how the public voted Leave despite the all warnings from experts and politicians.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd agree with that.  But how can disruptive change be effected without public consent.  Trust in the political class and experts is very low, see how the public voted Leave despite the all warnings from experts and politicians.

Would a tax on all supermarkets based on their use of plastic introduced by the current govt be without public consent? Govts legislate on issues not in their manifesto all the time in reaction to events. They don't need to have had it in their manifesto at election, and I would suggest bold decisions here would be more likely to get public support rather than 'discussions to set a target when full findings become available' or some such.

[Rhiannon]

Watching Planet Earth shapes public opinion more than reports and politicians.

[ippy]

If the relatively little in overall terms Co-Op can produce biodegradable plastic bags surly this would make it the best answer to the problem by compelling manufacturers to make most plastics biodegradable, to a greater or lesser degree, dependent on application, say the maximum plastic should last before a complete bio degrade time of say 30 years. (Or whatever is agreed as the most practical).

I'm also sure there must be a case for non-biodegradable plastics for some applications, how about fines for not disposing these particular plastics in conformity with a law, such as special centres specifically set up to deal with these plastics legally, in a similar way we deal with the disposal of refrigerant from old fridge/freezers.

It would then be a good thing to try to clear as much plastic waste from everywhere we can after the above, I've no Idea how that could be funded if in fact it was, poorer countries unable to fund such an operation etc., etc.   

  Regards ippy