Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?

[Nearly Sane]

Or indeed something else? Rarely have I felt so disconected from any narrative. Almost nothing makes sense.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880

[Dicky Underpants]

Or indeed something else? Rarely have I felt so disconected from any narrative. Almost nothing makes sense.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880

Well, this morning on Radio 4 we had the Russian politician Vitaly Milonov accusing the British government of orchestrating the whole affair in order to generate anti-Russian feeling in the British people. I would have thought that was the last thing the government wanted in these unstable times. In any case, I think the British people in general have little ill-will towards the Russians per se - only towards the demagogues who have long tended to control them in one form or another.
There is the question of motive, wherever the lethal Novichok attack originated from. The whole thing would seem utterly childish if it weren't so tragic. I had been thinking that this was some game of KGB agents whose mentality hasn't changed since the days of the cold war. I then heard Milonov this morning accusing the British of living in a James Bond fantasy world - the same idea I had about the Russians' grisly agents. However, since Milonov seems to be a homophobic cretin who has accused gays of corrupting straight people into paedophilia, and carrying out violent attacks on straight people (rather than the other way round)* - I'm not overly inclined to believe that his take on 'reality' is to be trusted all that much.

*These are probably some of the more innocuous of his disgusting pronouncements.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, this morning on Radio 4 we had the Russian politician Vitaly Milonov accusing the British government of orchestrating the whole affair in order to generate anti-Russian feeling in the British people. I would have thought that was the last thing the government wanted in these unstable times. In any case, I think the British people in general have little ill-will towards the Russians per se - only towards the demagogues who have long tended to control them in one form or another.
There is the question of motive, wherever the lethal Novichok attack originated from. The whole thing would seem utterly childish if it weren't so tragic. I had been thinking that this was some game of KGB agents whose mentality hasn't changed since the days of the cold war. I then heard Milonov this morning accusing the British of living in a James Bond fantasy world - the same idea I had about the Russians' grisly agents. However, since Milonov seems to be a homophobic cretin who has accused gays of corrupting straight people into paedophilia, and carrying out violent attacks on straight people (rather than the other way round)* - I'm not overly inclined to believe that his take on 'reality' is to be trusted all that much.

*These are probably some of the more innocuous of his disgusting pronouncements.

Yep, he's an idiot but that doesn't really help, it's just muddying the waters. At least he isn't their foreign secretary

[wigginhall]

I'm baffled why the Russians would use such an easily traced method.  Or maybe they don't care, or it's a warning, death to traitors.   But as NS said, this stuff wasn't made in Russia originally.

[Nearly Sane]

There is a genuine issue about suspicious deaths of Russians in the UK, see the latest below, but why have they not been an issue up to now?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/13/russian-businessman-close-associate-ofboris-berezovsky-found/

[Enki]

I'm baffled why the Russians would use such an easily traced method.  Or maybe they don't care, or it's a warning, death to traitors.   But as NS said, this stuff wasn't made in Russia originally.

I agree. I find it baffling too. All I can come up with is that the Russian mafia were encouraged to put the mockers on Sergei Skripal in some way, and they made a complete balls up of it.

[ad_orientem]

Fake news, I reckon.

[ad_orientem]

I'm baffled why the Russians would use such an easily traced method.  Or maybe they don't care, or it's a warning, death to traitors.   But as NS said, this stuff wasn't made in Russia originally.

There's a coupke if things. The geezer is a forner Russian agent, so before he was allowed to reside in England the Russians would have made sure there was nothing he could give to MI6  that they didn't already know. Now I'm not putting it past the Russian secret services (just as I wouldn't the British or American) but to use an agent fairly easily treacable would be bloody stupid. Sounds like a right fit up, if you ask me.

[Nearly Sane]

There's a coupke if things. The geezer is a forner Russian agent, so before he was allowed to reside in England the Russians would have made sure there was nothing he could give to MI6  that they didn't already know. Now I'm not putting it past the Russian secret services (just as I wouldn't the British or American) but to use an agent fairly easily treacable would be bloody stupid. Sounds like a right fit up, if you ask me.

But then as a fit up it's a bit shite so same issues apply to your choice.

[Nearly Sane]

Pity Chris Bryant had appeared on RT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43393314

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

My impression is that as Putin feels threatened by NATO, his strategy is to keep pushing boundaries to test the political will of NATO members and as a warning to countries on Russia’s borders that are aligning themselves more and more closely with NATO’s strategic interests to the detriment of Russia’s interests.

The warning is that NATO or NATO members (apart from the US) don’t have the capability or will to protect its citizens from Russia’s reach.

It also makes Russia look strong, which can’t hurt, given the Presidential elections this month.

[Rhiannon]

My impression is that as Putin feels threatened by NATO, his strategy is to keep pushing boundaries to test the political will of NATO members and as a warning to countries on Russia’s borders that are aligning themselves more and more closely with NATO’s strategic interests to the detriment of Russia’s interests.

The warning is that NATO or NATO members (apart from the US) don’t have the capability or will to protect its citizens from Russia’s reach.

It also makes Russia look strong, which can’t hurt, given the Presidential elections this month.

This plus warning any would-be ‘traitors’ of the consequences of cooperating with the west. There’s probably a few people who might have had stuff to say about the links with Trump and the election who Putin would want to keep quiet.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes. Is this any different to US drone strikes on foreign soil? Innocent bystanders were killed then too as part of the usual collateral damage that occurs in political manouverings to protect national interests.

[Udayana]

Yes. Is this any different to US drone strikes on foreign soil? Innocent bystanders were killed then too as part of the usual collateral damage that occurs in political manouverings to protect national interests.

Of-course it is completely different. Are you claiming an equivalence?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Of-course it is completely different. Are you claiming an equivalence?

My view and why is pretty clear from my post.

[ad_orientem]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/

[Nearly Sane]

My impression is that as Putin feels threatened by NATO, his strategy is to keep pushing boundaries to test the political will of NATO members and as a warning to countries on Russia’s borders that are aligning themselves more and more closely with NATO’s strategic interests to the detriment of Russia’s interests.

The warning is that NATO or NATO members (apart from the US) don’t have the capability or will to protect its citizens from Russia’s reach.

It also makes Russia look strong, which can’t hurt, given the Presidential elections this month.

The U.S doesn't have the means to stop this either unless you are suggesting a nuclear strike would follow, which wouldn't prevent it.

[Nearly Sane]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/

Thanks for posting this, ad, I had been reading it earlier and meant to post it but hadn't got round to it. I don't agree with all Craig says, as ever, but if Russia is half the bogeyman we get told, electing Trump, causing Brexit, then  they have become the illuminati of our age.

[floo]

I am of the opinion Trump and Putin are very dangerous indeed. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The U.S doesn't have the means to stop this either unless you are suggesting a nuclear strike would follow, which wouldn't prevent it.

Russia hasn’t had sufficient funds to update its military equipment so the US has enough conventional weapons and equipment and manpower in its armed forces to stop Russian expansion in Europe, provided the US was prepared to send their resources to Europe, but if Russia was losing a war against NATO forces they might use nuclear and biological weapons in retaliation. At which point there would be no winners but some countries would lose more badly than others.

It is in Russia’s interests to figure out how much meddling in surrounding countries it can get away with to protect its national interests, while playing the “if you confront us and we’re losing we”ll use the nuclear or biological weapons” card. So I think it makes sense to carry out problematic actions but not open acts of war and gauge the response. It gets people used to Russia flexing its muscles, expanding its sphere of influence, and intimidates neighbouring countries that are contemplating opening up to NATO influence.

[Nearly Sane]

Russia hasn’t had sufficient funds to update its military equipment so the US has enough conventional weapons and equipment and manpower in its armed forces to stop Russian expansion in Europe, provided the US was prepared to send their resources to Europe, but if Russia was losing a war against NATO forces they might use nuclear and biological weapons in retaliation. At which point there would be no winners but some countries would lose more badly than others.

It is in Russia’s interests to figure out how much meddling in surrounding countries it can get away with to protect its national interests, while playing the “if you confront us and we’re losing we”ll use the nuclear or biological weapons” card. So I think it makes sense to carry out problematic actions but not open acts of war and gauge the response. It gets people used to Russia flexing its muscles, expanding its sphere of influence, and intimidates neighbouring countries that are contemplating opening up to NATO influence.

Which is irrelevant to a quick dose of nerve gas or shooting -

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Which is irrelevant to a quick dose of nerve gas or shooting -

No idea what you are trying to say here. What shooting? And what is irrelevant to nerve gas?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/

i woukdn’t trust the British government after the Iraq dossier fiasco, where they took uncorroborated evidence from a single British Intelligence source against the advice of intelligence experts to build a case for invading Iraq.

But I don’t trust the Russian government or their intelligence services either.

[Nearly Sane]

No idea what you are trying to say here. What shooting? And what is irrelevant to nerve gas?

That use of nerve gas or shooting by a Russian agent isn't prevented by anything the US has that the UK or others don't.

[Nearly Sane]

i woukdn’t trust the British government after the Iraq dossier fiasco, where they took uncorroborated evidence from a single British Intelligence source against the advice of intelligence experts to build a case for invading Iraq.

But I don’t trust the Russian government or their intelligence services either.

  And trusting the Russian govt isn't  suggested by Craig's blog. so not sure what point you are making?