Author Topic: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?  (Read 10083 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2018, 08:03:22 AM »
Corbyn seems to be getting a lot of criticism from his own MPs  - based on a script that MPs are claiming political leaders are supposed to follow when their country is “threatened”. Corbyn’s response seems reasonable - he wants evidence. May is probably hoping this situation will improve her public image, so I think she is more concerned about headlines and creating a perception in her Cabinet that she is up to the job of taking on Russia than she is about the rules of the international convention on chemical weapons.
Yes there was a beauty parade of would be Labour leaders aka Blair manque with no prescription other than to try and make some effective apology for Brown, Miliband and Corbyn and then pass as Tory lite.

Having said that I'm afraid Corbyn has put himself back to where he was just after the referendum.
His subsequent recovery is miraculous but there is rarely a second shot at a miracle. His card here is as always the extent of Tory incompetence in all areas.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:20:29 AM by Private Frazer »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2018, 09:44:53 AM »
Yes there was a beauty parade of would be Labour leaders aka Blair manque with no prescription other than to try and make some effective apology for Brown, Miliband and Corbyn and then pass as Tory lite.

Having said that I'm afraid Corbyn has put himself back to where he was just after the referendum.
His subsequent recovery is miraculous but there is rarely a second shot at a miracle. His card here is as always the extent of Tory incompetence in all areas.
I have to say I am not a Corbyn supporter - I am too self-interested to risk the economy - but technically he is right to call for evidence and to distrust the political use of information from the intelligence services based on the dossier used to justify the invasion of Iraq.

I think it works quite well for there to be some intelligent voice of reason amongst the British political posturing while the posturing continues. Whether Putin authorised this or not, Putin will probably be dismissive of any government that plays by the rules, and will factor into his future strategy those governments that act decisively without hanging back waiting for evidence that probably won't tie Putin to this beyond reasonable doubt, and may compromise intelligence sources.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2018, 10:38:53 AM »
This is an interesting and informative piece from The Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2018, 01:41:05 PM »
Meanwhile the defence secretary says Russia smells of poo and wee - at that level anyway


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43405686

Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2018, 01:53:16 PM »
Alex Massie on Alec Salmond's defence of RT - I agree with a lot of it but don't see that Skripal has changed the issue. I don't think the case against Russia has been made but making this show was always being a useful idiot.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/alex-salmonds-defence-of-russia-today-is-inexcusable/
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 01:57:36 PM by Nearly Sane »

floo

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2018, 02:06:56 PM »
If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)

Gordon

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2018, 02:13:43 PM »
Call me cynical if you will but it seems to me there is no information in the public domain about the details of this and the basis on which it can be presumed Russia/Putin are guilty, and some of the headlines about Corbyn for daring to suggest that some hard facts would be good thing do smack of the same kind of childish jingoism that persuaded the hard of thinking to vote for Brexit.

Then we have the hapless Maybot now being portrayed as being strong in her handling of this, such as trotting off today to look at a bench in Salisbury, but perhaps it is just me who wonders if this isn't a fortuitous distraction from the Brexit shambles. Of course it is a serious issue, but I'm with Jeremy on this one: we need more information and less reacting (to what exactly?).

Aruntraveller

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2018, 02:18:46 PM »
If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)

That really advances things a long way. Elsewhere you posted that you trusted Mrs May on this issue.

If Mrs May said it, it must be right! ::)

As a contribution to the discussion it doesn't add a lot does it? 

It just displays your particular prejudice towards Salmond - and mine towards May.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2018, 02:24:00 PM »
If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)
Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see what your point is.

floo

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2018, 02:52:40 PM »
Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see what your point is.

Don't worry about it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2018, 02:59:58 PM »
Don't worry about it.
I don't but perhaps you should.

jeremyp

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2018, 06:18:22 PM »
I think, if Theresa May is so convinced of the involvement of the Russian government, she should lay the evidence out. I'm really sick of British governments keeping secrets from the people that employ them to run the country. Corbyn is right. Let's see the evidence.
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Anchorman

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2018, 06:39:18 PM »
Alex Massie on Alec Salmond's defence of RT - I agree with a lot of it but don't see that Skripal has changed the issue. I don't think the case against Russia has been made but making this show was always being a useful idiot.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/alex-salmonds-defence-of-russia-today-is-inexcusable/
   




Big 'Eck on RT's just being a numpty....but, unlike Rees Mogg, he hasn't got cash to worry about......
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2018/03/jacob-rees-mogg-firm-manages-nearly-100m-invested-in-russia/

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Anchorman

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2018, 06:39:58 PM »
If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)
   

Why?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SweetPea

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2018, 08:30:59 PM »
Well, RT is still up so Alex isn't talking complete nonsense.

Here's Ken Livingstone and I agree with a lot that he's saying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBB6biZ4aa4
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 01:58:48 PM »
Leaving aside whether it was a 'good' Russian that paid £160,000 to play tennis with Boris Johnson, in find the selling of access in this way redolent of corruption


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43448559

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2018, 05:31:37 PM »
I think, if Theresa May is so convinced of the involvement of the Russian government, she should lay the evidence out. I'm really sick of British governments keeping secrets from the people that employ them to run the country. Corbyn is right. Let's see the evidence.

I previously poo-pooed the idea of British involvement, put forward by Vitaly Milonov, only to find it repeated by another Russian pundit on the Andrew Marr show. Well, Porton Down is close to Salisbury. But we might be in double bluff territory here - that's a connection that Russia would be quick to promote.
Well, it's likely that the MOD has its own agenda*, and wouldn't wait for government sanction if it wanted to do a little 'tidying up' (perhaps they thought it might help the country by creating a 'hate Russia' diversion).
*The Home Office has also shown a revolting form of autonomy from government guidelines in the Brexit matter, by issuing "pack your bags and fuck off" ultimata to foreign nationals who've lived here for years and have children in British schools, not long after the referendum result, so perhaps this is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2018, 05:33:44 PM »
I don't think there is any British involvement here, and I strongly suspect this is Putin but I don't have enough evidence to from go with that as a conclusion currently.

Here is the latest from Craig Murray, as ever I don't agree with everything but it's always an interesting take

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/on-being-a-dissenting-voice-in-2018/
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 05:36:44 PM by Nearly Sane »

Grace of God

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2018, 09:29:51 AM »
Or indeed something else? Rarely have I felt so disconected from any narrative. Almost nothing makes sense.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880

fake news, probably designed to push us back towards the eu in the guise we need europe to support Britain if Russia started trouble...
John 3:16 the best news you will ever hear....

Nearly Sane

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2018, 09:34:25 AM »
fake news, probably designed to push us back towards the eu in the guise we need europe to support Britain if Russia started trouble...
Fake in what sense? That there was no attack? Or that there was an attack but it was carried out by who?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 09:43:16 AM by Nearly Sane »

floo

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2018, 11:29:50 AM »
fake news, probably designed to push us back towards the eu in the guise we need europe to support Britain if Russia started trouble...

Are you saying there was no attack and the story has been concocted? Of course we need Europe, Brexit is a DISASTER. :o

Grace of God

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2018, 12:07:39 PM »
Are you saying there was no attack and the story has been concocted? Of course we need Europe, Brexit is a DISASTER. :o

it seems the nerve agent is so lethal and the photo's show firemen stood around with no protective gear on...

Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...

John 3:16 the best news you will ever hear....

floo

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2018, 12:14:51 PM »
it seems the nerve agent is so lethal and the photo's show firemen stood around with no protective gear on...

Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...

Having spoken to people who voted for Brexit, many hadn't a clue what is was all about. One said she voted for it, because her next door neighbour was going to do so! That ghastly man Farage said if people voted for Brexit it would mean there would be more money for the NHS, before recanting that statement! >:(

Aruntraveller

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2018, 12:16:00 PM »
Quote
Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...

I don't think that is even implied in LR's post. She has a problem with Brexit, as many people do.

Anyway you seem to be implying that democracy always produces the best results, palpably not true in any number of scenarios.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Grace of God

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Re: Novichok - fake news or Russian attack?
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2018, 12:17:34 PM »
I don't think that is even implied in LR's post. She has a problem with Brexit, as many people do.

Anyway you seem to be implying that democracy always produces the best results, palpably not true in any number of scenarios.

I'm not implying democracy produces the best results, the problem with ignoring democracy and those who would allow it to be ignored is the slippery slope it produces....
John 3:16 the best news you will ever hear....