Sweden's Social Democrats propose ban on religious independent schools

[ippy]

I'm for anything that diminishes the ability of the religious teaching their stuff to the very youngest of our school children, this Swedish idea could be a start and it gives a boost to the secularist argument here in the U K.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180313/swedens-social-democrats-propose-ban-on-religious-independent-schools

Try this link.

Regards ippy

[Robbie]

Seems an odd system where so-called Independent schools are publicly funded but run independently  .

Independent schools here are not publicly funded, they are paid for out of school fees; the government used to fund a certain amount of assisted places but stopped a while back (there may be a very few government scholarships for able pupils, I believe I read something about that, in certain schools. Not a common happening).

[jeremyp]

Independent schools here are not publicly funded

Apart from the fact that they attract tax relief something like charities (assuming by "here" you mean the UK).

I'm not necessarily suggesting they shouldn't get such tax relief - every child that attends a private school is one that the state doesn't have to pay for.

[Robbie]

Yes they do get tax relief because of charity status but what I meant was the state does not fund the schools.

Seems to be quite different in Sweden where the state does fund Independent schools but they run themselves free of state interference. An unusual system.

I wonder how the so-called Independent schools in Sweden would fare if state funds were withdrawn. It would be 'sink or swim' but in the UK many flourished as fee paying schools after grammar schools were abolished in a lot of
areas.

The thing about faith schools is, do they teach children what they need to get on the world. 

When reading about Sweden I was surprised that there were Plymouth Brethren schools (or Exclusive Brethren); I've not come across one before so I googled and we have quite a few in the UK & in Ireland. They have an extremely narrow curriculum. Here's an article by a teacher who used to be on the staff at one of those schools over here:
https://faithschoolersanonymous.uk/2016/06/exclusive-brethren/

The extremely Orthodox Jewish groups such as Haradi have private schools and their curriculum is even more narrow, they learn enough only to work within their own community (in contrast modern Jewish schools are very good indeed).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42580792
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ultra-orthodox-jewish-group-creationism-teacher-school-funding-boycott-hackney-london-a8216686.html


Islamic schools have a high standard of education particularly in science & technology but do not teach all the subjects that are on offer in other schools, eg Drama, Music, Art (except for Design).

As Sweden's faith schools are state funded, the state has the right to look into all of that & correct it.

[Nearly Sane]

Surely the state has a duty to ensure children's rights in education even if they aren't funding it?

[Robbie]

Surely the state has a duty to ensure children's rights in education even if they aren't funding it?

Yes they do but it's a start, nothing is going to happen overnight.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes they do but it's a start, nothing is going to happen overnight.

Sorry, just not getting your point here.


You stated

'As Sweden's faith schools are state funded, the state has the right to look into all of that & correct it.'

Are you now saying that the state funding has nothing to do with what the state has a right to look at but for some children it might be a bit busy to ensure their rights are catered for?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You cannot campaign against faith schools on the grounds of segregation and support private schools without a hintette of humbug.

[ProfessorDavey]

Seems an odd system where so-called Independent schools are publicly funded but run independently  .

Independent schools here are not publicly funded, they are paid for out of school fees; the government used to fund a certain amount of assisted places but stopped a while back (there may be a very few government scholarships for able pupils, I believe I read something about that, in certain schools. Not a common happening).

They sound rather similar to our faith schools - funded publicly but run by a religious foundation. While ours are not called independent, it seems strange to describe these Swedish schools as independent as they are publicly funded and must follow government guidelines on the curriculum, but operate independently.

And that being the case - good on Sweden for looking to tackle this problem - for all sorts of reasons, both on the basis of principle and on pragmatic and fairness grounds, I don't think there should be state funding for religious schools.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

They sound rather similar to our faith schools - funded publicly but run by a religious foundation. While ours are not called independent, it seems strange to describe these Swedish schools as independent as they are publicly funded and must follow government guidelines on the curriculum, but operate independently.

And that being the case - good on Sweden for looking to tackle this problem - for all sorts of reasons, both on the basis of principle and on pragmatic and fairness grounds, I don't think there should be state funding for religious schools.

The state wouldn't have had much of its educational infrastructure had it not been for religion.
Any holder of a world view such as humanism has the right to apply to run a school.

Also I believe UK secularists take a consumerist view of funding, that it is only money which educates.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The humanist approach is that they want the state to fund Humanist schools. What is different between the state funding all schools so they are acceptable to Humanists and some schools so they are acceptable to religionists?

[ProfessorDavey]

The humanist approach is that they want the state to fund Humanist schools.

No they don't - or at least the main humanist society in the UK doesn't. HumanistsUK are very clear they do not want the state to fund humanist schools, and indeed the presence of state funded humanist schools is just as much against their principles as state funded CofE schools (as an example).

So stop lying Vlad.

[ProfessorDavey]

Also I believe UK secularists take a consumerist view of funding, that it is only money which educates.

And on what basis do you make that sweeping and absurdly generalising assertion?

[Aruntraveller]

Also I believe UK secularists take a consumerist view of funding, that it is only money which educates.

Yes dear, of course we do 

Or more seriously I don't. So you are wrong.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes dear, of course we do 

Or more seriously I don't. So you are wrong.

Nor do I.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No they don't - or at least the main humanist society in the UK doesn't. HumanistsUK are very clear they do not want the state to fund humanist schools, and indeed the presence of state funded humanist schools is just as much against their principles as state funded CofE schools (as an example).

So stop lying Vlad.

Of course they do. It is Humanist UK aim that religion is excised from schools to make them acceptable to Humanist UK rather than setting up schools under their own aegis or even campaigning for them.

Now I don't run around with my wrists flailing over privilege but I am sure that the closeness of the Humanist UK to convert all schools in the UK to humanist approved schools involving the elimination of religion must represent some kind of position over the religious and victory would certainly represent the triumph of humanism as a world view in education while expecting religious taxpayers to pay for humanist privilege. 

[Aruntraveller]

And yet you are quite happy to accept my humanist tax to pay for religious privilege.

Methinks the poster doth protest too much.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And yet you are quite happy to accept my humanist tax to pay for religious privilege.

No....it's clearly not enough.

[ProfessorDavey]

Of course they do. It is Humanist UK aim that religion is excised from schools to make them acceptable to Humanist UK rather than setting up schools under their own aegis or even campaigning for them.

Now I don't run around with my wrists flailing over privilege but I am sure that the closeness of the Humanist UK to convert all schools in the UK to humanist approved schools involving the elimination of religion must represent some kind of position over the religious and victory would certainly represent the triumph of humanism as a world view in education while expecting religious taxpayers to pay for humanist privilege.

Rubbish - from their own site, in response to a question as to why their aren't humanist schools and why HumanistsUk don't set them up:

'Because Humanists UK campaigns positively for integrated inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none. It would be no less ethically unsound and socially divisive to set up overtly humanist schools in a pluralistic society than it is to set up religious schools.'

They do not want state funded humanist schools - they want integrated and inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none.

[Aruntraveller]

No....it's clearly not enough.

What the religious privilege or my tax?   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Rubbish - from their own site, in response to a question as to why their aren't humanist schools and why HumanistsUk don't set them up:

'Because Humanists UK campaigns positively for integrated inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none. It would be no less ethically unsound and socially divisive to set up overtly humanist schools in a pluralistic society than it is to set up religious schools.'

They do not want state funded humanist schools - they want integrated and inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none.

It would still unavoidably be a triumph for the humanist world view...and as I keep telling you modern secularism is a council of atheists deciding what the religious are allowed.

IMHO.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

They do not want state funded humanist schools - they want integrated and inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none.

That may be their intention, but unfortunately since their philosophy is based on logical contradictions, it is doomed to failure.

You only have to look at the implementation of tolerance. Yeah, tolerance is good ... until something disagrees with its tenets, and then the result is intolerance towards anything that doesn't comply.

[Nearly Sane]

That may be their intention, but unfortunately since their philosophy is based on logical contradictions, it is doomed to failure.

You only have to look at the implementation of tolerance. Yeah, tolerance is good ... until something disagrees with its tenets, and then the result is intolerance towards anything that doesn't comply.

nice of you to support IS killing gay people.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SotS,

I assume that this'll be another of your smash and grab raids, but cock-eyed optimist that I am...

That may be their intention, but unfortunately since their philosophy is based on logical contradictions, it is doomed to failure.

What do you think "their philosophy" is and what logical contradictions do you think it's based on?

You only have to look at the implementation of tolerance. Yeah, tolerance is good ... until something disagrees with its tenets, and then the result is intolerance towards anything that doesn't comply.

You seem confused. "Tolerance" doesn't imply tolerance of everything. You know that right?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Their philosophy is within what they publish. You do know that mission statements are often idealised shite designed to soothe the gullible don't you.

Leaving aside the paranoid fantasy stuff, is anyone going to have a go at telling us what these supposed "logical contradictions" might be?