Sweden's Social Democrats propose ban on religious independent schools

[SteveH]

I dislike faith schools, and I dislike home-schooling even more. I wouldn't ban either of them, but faith schools should not be state funded, and both faith schools and home-schooling parents should be strictly supervised to make sure they're teaching the full curriculum, and not teaching the kids nonsense such as creationism.

[floo]

There is nothing wrong with home schooling in certain circumstances, as long as it is done properly and for the right reasons. Children must never be isolated from their peers. It should be mandatory for those being home schooled to have regular inspections to see that proper standards are being maintained.

[ProfessorDavey]

I dislike faith schools, and I dislike home-schooling even more. I wouldn't ban either of them, but faith schools should not be state funded, and both faith schools and home-schooling parents should be strictly supervised to make sure they're teaching the full curriculum, and not teaching the kids nonsense such as creationism.

I agree.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

I dislike faith schools, and I dislike home-schooling even more. I wouldn't ban either of them, but faith schools should not be state funded, and both faith schools and home-schooling parents should be strictly supervised to make sure they're teaching the full curriculum, and not teaching the kids nonsense such as creationism.

I agree obviously, but what then are we to make of Gabriella's "Some of the people who helpfully run schools for the rest of the community who don't want to run schools themselves follow a particular faith ethos and culture/Some other parents in the community like a school's ethos and want to send their children to schools run by other people" if that "faith ethos and culture" is, for example, creationism?

[ProfessorDavey]

Steve H,

I agree obviously, but what then are we to make of Gabriella's "Some of the people who helpfully run schools for the rest of the community who don't want to run schools themselves follow a particular faith ethos and culture/Some other parents in the community like a school's ethos and want to send their children to schools run by other people" if that "faith ethos and culture" is, for example, creationism?

I suspect Gabriella is special pleading.

The implication of her recent post is that provided there are:
1. Some people who want to start a school with a particular ethos
2. There are some parents who want their child to attend
3. The school upholds basic academic standards
4. And (presumably) that the school can establish admissions rules that 'align' with that ethos (as faith schools currently do)

That the state should fund that school.

Beyond the fact that this is simply naive as it is unachievable in practice due to limited resources, what if that ethos is white supremicist.

[ProfessorDavey]

I compare schools to businesses in terms of culture. If the culture of the organisation is not meeting the needs of the community, there will be a gap in the market and people will look to existing alternatives that have ethics they agree with to meet their needs, or they will lobby the government to create an alternative that has the ethics they want to meet their needs.

Businesses exist in the private sector - poor analogy with state funded public services.

[bluehillside Retd.]

PRof,

I suspect Gabriella is special pleading.

The implication of her recent post is that provided there are:
1. Some people who want to start a school with a particular ethos
2. There are some parents who want their child to attend
3. The school upholds basic academic standards
4. And (presumably) that the school can establish admissions rules that 'align' with that ethos (as faith schools currently do)

That the state should fund that school.

Beyond the fact that this is simply naive as it is unachievable in practice due to limited resources, what if that ethos is white supremicist.

Quite so. Would she then have an approved/not approved categorising of the "faith ethos and cultures", and who would do that categorising I wonder?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

Just out of interest, would you be equally sanguine if the "faith ethos or culture" entailed teaching children the "facts" of creationism? How about the "facts" of Marxist-Leninisn or of fascism, or is it just religious lying that's ok?   

Also, are you not concerned at all by the risk of stripping kids of their critical faculties by engendering the notion that "faith" is a reliable guide to truth, of the ghettoisation and division caused by sectarianism, of the risk of pupils who think clerics have access to categorical truths doing as they say regardless of what those actions might be - running off to join IS for example?   

Seems like a hell of a price to pay to me.

I would be against the idea of schools teaching facts that are not supported by evidence. Whether I am against the idea of schools teaching pupils their beliefs would depend on the outcome of teaching those beliefs. If the faith school produces comparable exam results  and its pupils seem to integrate in a comparable manner with their wider community relative to non-faith state schools, and its pupils are productive law-abiding members of society due to their use of their critical-thinking faculties, then I would be sanguine.

If that is not the case, then I think the State should intervene in that particular school, unless of course all faith schools are producing undesirable results, in which case I would want to investigate why.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

I would be against the idea of schools teaching facts that are not supported by evidence.

So you’re against faith schools then?

Whether I am against the idea of schools teaching pupils their beliefs would depend on the outcome of teaching those beliefs. If the faith school produces comparable exam results  and its pupils seem to integrate in a comparable manner with their wider community relative to non-faith state schools, and its pupils are productive law-abiding members of society due to their use of their critical-thinking faculties, then I would be sanguine.

If that is not the case, then I think the State should intervene in that particular school, unless of course all faith schools are producing undesirable results, in which case I would want to investigate why.

None of that’s relevant if you’ve already declared against faith schools at all (see above).

[ProfessorDavey]

I would be against the idea of schools teaching facts that are not supported by evidence. Whether I am against the idea of schools teaching pupils their beliefs would depend on the outcome of teaching those beliefs. If the faith school produces comparable exam results  and its pupils seem to integrate in a comparable manner with their wider community relative to non-faith state schools, and its pupils are productive law-abiding members of society due to their use of their critical-thinking faculties, then I would be sanguine.

So would you support the establishment of a state funded white supremicist school that met the following criteria

1. Some people wanted to start a school with that particular ethos
2. There are some parents who want their child to attend that school
3. The school upholds basic academic standards

And that the school prioritises white children over non white children in its admissions criteria. And won't employ non white teaching staff.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

So you’re against faith schools then?

None of that’s relevant if you’ve already declared against faith schools at all (see above).

I am against schools that are teaching beliefs as facts, rather than beliefs. If faith schools state that they teach faith beliefs that's fine.

If moral beliefs and values are being taught as facts I would be against that in a non-faith school as well. But if the school states that they teach their values as beliefs that pupils are expected to co-operate with, I'm fine with that, provided the school undergoes state inspections and oversight.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Businesses exist in the private sector - poor analogy with state funded public services.

It's up to the members of the public who are affected by it to lobby for change in the culture. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I suspect Gabriella is special pleading.

The implication of her recent post is that provided there are:
1. Some people who want to start a school with a particular ethos
2. There are some parents who want their child to attend
3. The school upholds basic academic standards
4. And (presumably) that the school can establish admissions rules that 'align' with that ethos (as faith schools currently do)

That the state should fund that school.

No - we already had this discussion. A management accountant can use the available budget and available premises and projected costs in a borough to work out the level of support that would be required for a school to make the school a viable proposition. If the numbers don't show sufficient support for a faith school, give the resources to the non-faith schools.

Beyond the fact that this is simply naive as it is unachievable in practice due to limited resources, what if that ethos is white supremicist.

You can hire management accountants that aren't naive and can calculate the thresholds that would make a school viable.

If the ethos is white supremacist and it produces comparable exam results  and its pupils seem to integrate in a comparable manner with their wider community relative to non-white supremacist state schools, and its pupils are productive law-abiding members of society due to their use of their critical-thinking faculties, then I would be sanguine.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

I am against schools that are teaching beliefs as facts, rather than beliefs. If faith schools state that they teach faith beliefs that's fine.

You seem confused. Faith schools precisely "teach beliefs as facts" - that's what they do.

If moral beliefs and values are being taught as facts I would be against that in a non-faith school as well. But if the school states that they teach their values as beliefs that pupils are expected to co-operate with, I'm fine with that, provided the school undergoes state inspections and oversight.

See above. As "god" to take an example isn't an evidence-based fact, presumably you'd be against schools that teach it as a fact nonetheless?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

You seem confused. Faith schools precisely "teach beliefs as facts" - that's what they do.

See above. As "god" to take an example isn't an evidence-based fact, presumably you'd e against schools that teach it as a fact nonetheless?

I wouldn't know - I never went to a faith school. I await your evidence for that statement. If some faith schools are doing that, parents and Ofsted inspections should highlight it. There are children who go to faith schools who are from a different faith or of no faith, and parents who are unhappy with the way subjects are being taught can tackle the school together. 

I can only go by the information in Parliamentary and government documents, which state for example "RE in a school with a religious character must be provided in accordance with the school’s trust deed or, where provision is not made by a trust deed, in accordance with the beliefs of the religion or denomination specified in the order that designates the school as having a religious character." 

I am aware that faith schools are inspected by Ofsted. I am also aware that the schools Minister, Elizabeth Truss, commented in a response to a Parliamentary Question in March 2014: Religious education (RE) remains very important for pupils' understanding of the rich diversity of faiths and communities in the UK and their part in shaping the values and traditions of this country.

The language used such as "diversity", "faiths", "values", and "traditions" does not suggest that the government supports beliefs being taught as facts.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am aware that faith schools are inspected by Ofsted.

RE in faith schools is not inspected by Ofsted, but by separate inspectors appointed by the school's own governing body. Talk about conflict of interest.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

I wouldn't know - I never went to a faith school. I await your evidence for that statement. If some faith schools are doing that, parents and Ofsted inspections should highlight it. There are children who go to faith schools who are from a different faith or of no faith, and parents who are unhappy with the way subjects are being taught can tackle the school together.

Good grief. You’re joking right?

You’re seriously asking for evidence that faith schools teach their various faith claims as facts?

Seriously seriously though?   

I can only go by the information in Parliamentary and government documents, which state for example "RE in a school with a religious character must be provided in accordance with the school’s trust deed or, where provision is not made by a trust deed, in accordance with the beliefs of the religion or denomination specified in the order that designates the school as having a religious character." 

I am aware that faith schools are inspected by Ofsted. I am also aware that the schools Minister, Elizabeth Truss, commented in a response to a Parliamentary Question in March 2014: Religious education (RE) remains very important for pupils' understanding of the rich diversity of faiths and communities in the UK and their part in shaping the values and traditions of this country.

The language used such as "diversity", "faiths", "values", and "traditions" does not suggest that the government supports beliefs being taught as facts.

That's RE - ie, comparative religion ("some people believe X, some people believe Y" etc) - which is what secular schools teach as a sort of social anthropology. Religious teaching in faith schools on the other hand is a very different matter, as you well know.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am also aware that the schools Minister, Elizabeth Truss, commented in a response to a Parliamentary Question in March 2014: Religious education (RE) remains very important for pupils' understanding of the rich diversity of faiths and communities in the UK and their part in shaping the values and traditions of this country.

And do you think that a child studying this RE curriculum:

http://www.catholiceducation.org.uk/images/RECD_2012.pdf

Would understand the 'rich diversity of faiths and communities in the UK and their part in shaping the values and traditions of this country'. Or would they effectively only understand catholicism - in huge, huge depth, with every other religion relegated to an afterthought at best.

And don't forget that Ofsted aren't allowed to comment on this RE provision at all - that is inspected by separate inspectors appointed by the school's own governing body (who, don't forget are required to be practicing catholics).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Gabriella,

You seem confused. Faith schools precisely "teach beliefs as facts" - that's what they do.

See above. As "god" to take an example isn't an evidence-based fact,

Hillside if I were to look up evidence based fact would it lead me back to this thread?
I guess you mean empirical fact. Who, given the nature of God would be teaching God as an empirical fact in a faith context?
Once again Hillside God is not a giant invisible man.

[floo]

Hillside if I were to look up evidence based fact would it lead me back to this thread?
I guess you mean empirical fact. Who, given the nature of God would be teaching God as an empirical fact in a faith context?
Once again Hillside God is not a giant invisible man.

More a figment of the human imagination.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Prof,

And do you think that a child studying this RE curriculum:

http://www.catholiceducation.org.uk/images/RECD_2012.pdf

Would understand the 'rich diversity of faiths and communities in the UK and their part in shaping the values and traditions of this country'. Or would they effectively only understand catholicism - in huge, huge depth, with every other religion relegated to an afterthought at best.

And don't forget that Ofsted aren't allowed to comment on this RE provision at all - that is inspected by separate inspectors appointed by the school's own governing body (who, don't forget are required to be practicing catholics).

From the same document (pages 3,4 – emphases added in bold) :

The Context of Religious Education

The primary purpose of Catholic Religious Education is to come to know and understand God’s revelation which is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. The Catholic school is ‘a clear educational project of which Christ is the foundation.’ 6 In the person of Christ, the deepest meaning of what it is to be human — that we are created by God and through the Holy Spirit united with Christ in his Incarnation — is discovered. 7 This revelation is known through the scriptures and the tradition of the Church as taught by the Magisterium. Religious Education helps the pupil to know and experience the meaning of this revelation in his or her own life and the life of the community which is the Church. Hence ‘the promotion of the human person is the goal of the Catholic school.’ 8 Parents ‘are bound by the most serious obligation to educate their children, and therefore must be recognised as the primary and principle educators’ 9 but in this primary task, parents need the subsidiary help of civil society and other institutions. The family is ‘the primary, but not the only and exclusive educating community’. 10 Among those who cooperate in the task of education, the Catholic school assists in the delivery of a programme of learning in Religious Education appropriate to the age and particular learning needs of the pupil. This Curriculum Directory provides a foundation for the classroom curriculum of such a programme. Religious Education is central to the curriculum of the Catholic school and is at the heart of the philosophy of Catholic education. Religious Education has developed in a way that reflects the particular identity of our Catholic schools in England and Wales. It teaches about the faith in the context of a school which proclaims the Gospel, and invites the individual to respond to the message of Christ. As the individual responds to this invitation, growth in faith and knowledge helps the pupil to respond to the call to holiness and understand the fullness of what it is to be human. For some, then, Religious Education will also be received as evangelisation and for some, catechesis. The relationship between Religious Education and Catechesisis one of distinction and complementarity. What confers on Religious Education in schools its proper evangelizing character is the fact that it is called to penetrate a particular area of culture and to relate to other areas of knowledge. ‘As an original form of the ministry of the word, it makes present the Gospel in a personal process of cultural, systematic and critical assimilation.’ 11 Religious Education in schools sows the dynamic seed

It is necessary, therefore, that Religious Education in schools be regarded as an academic discipline with the same systematic demands and the same rigour as other disciplines. It must present the Christian message and the Christian event with the same seriousness and the same depth with which other disciplines present their knowledge.

However, it should not simply be regarded as one subject among many, but should be the key element in an inter-disciplinary dialogue. The presentation of the Christian message influences the way in which, for example, the origins of the world, the sense of history, the basis of ethical values, the function of religion in culture, the destiny of the human person, and our relationship with nature, are understood. Religious Education in schools underpins, activates, develops and completes the educational and catechetical activity of the whole school. 13

...thus the Gospel will impregnate the mentality of the students in the field of their learning,

It's astonishing stuff, and a very long way from standard RE.

[SusanDoris]

I don't see the health service and education service as having similar goals so I think your comparison is too simplistic.

People tend to go to hospital to be treated for a short period of time and then they leave when they are well enough. They are not required to interact with hundreds of other people every day or buy into and uphold any common ethos or school culture; and patients are not children required to be kept under control in order to pass exams over a period of many years. If the faith ethos or non-faith ethos or being selective helps achieve the goals of the majority of parents at the school for their children to achieve educational and social skills, I'm all for selective schools. I'd leave it up to the parents at the school to decide if the school is working. I opted for private school so it should be up to state school parents to push for schools that reflect the ethos they want.

I compare schools to businesses in terms of culture. If the culture of the organisation is not meeting the needs of the community, there will be a gap in the market and people will look to existing alternatives that have ethics they agree with to meet their needs, or they will lobby the government to create an alternative that has the ethics they want to meet their needs.

The most important need a child has (although of course they do not know it at the time) is to be given information that is true, facts that are backed up by objective evidence. Information for which such objective evidence does not yet exist whould be clearly shown to be a don't know.

bluehilside #95 That is desperately sad. I haven't looked at the BHA suggested syllabus recently, but it should be more widely known I think.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And do you think that a child studying this RE curriculum:

http://www.catholiceducation.org.uk/images/RECD_2012.pdf

Would understand the 'rich diversity of faiths and communities in the UK and their part in shaping the values and traditions of this country'. Or would they effectively only understand catholicism - in huge, huge depth, with every other religion relegated to an afterthought at best.

And don't forget that Ofsted aren't allowed to comment on this RE provision at all - that is inspected by separate inspectors appointed by the school's own governing body (who, don't forget are required to be practicing catholics).

I had a look - thanks. I think it's pretty clear in this country that these are faith beliefs, theology, philosophy and not scientific facts, but how it is taught would depend on the school. If there is evidence of a school teaching faith beliefs as facts backed by science I doubt this could be kept secret. There would be reports on it and the state can intervene.

The document says:

The content of Religious Education will help the pupil to make a critique of all other knowledge, leading, for example, to an understanding of the relationship between science and religion or history, and between theology, sport and the human body.

Pope Benedict XVI, speaking to religious educators, stressed the need to enlarge the area of our rationality, to reopen it to the larger questions of the truth and the good, and to link theology, philosophy and science. The religious dimension contributes to the overall formation of the person and makes it possible to transform knowledge into wisdom of life.

Page 7

The aims of Religious Education:

1 To present engagingly a comprehensive content which is the basis of knowledge and understanding
of the Catholic faith;

2 To enable pupils continually to deepen their religious and theological understanding and be
able to communicate this effectively;

3 To present an authentic vision of the Church’s moral and social teaching so that pupils can
make a critique of the underlying trends in contemporary culture and society;

4 To raise pupils’ awareness of the faith and traditions of other religious communities in order
to respect and understand them;

5 To develop the critical faculties of pupils so that they can relate their Catholic faith to daily
life;

6 To stimulate pupils’ imagination and provoke a desire for personal meaning as revealed in the
truth of the Catholic faith;

7 To enable pupils to relate the knowledge gained through Religious Education to their understanding
of other subjects in the curriculum;

8 To bring clarity to the relationship between faith and life, and between faith and culture.

The outcome of excellent Religious Education is religiously literate and engaged young people who have the knowledge, understanding and skills – appropriate to their age and capacity – to reflect spiritually, and think ethically and theologically, and who are aware of the demands of religious commitment in everyday life.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

If there is evidence of a school teaching faith beliefs as facts backed by science...

Tut tut. That's not the argument. The argument is that faith schools teach their beliefs as facts (look at the RC stuff the Prof referenced some of which I copied and pasted for example) whereas non-faith schools do not (that's the comparative religion of RE). The "backed by science" bit is just something you've added after the event.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

Tut tut. That's not the argument. The argument is that faith schools teach their beliefs as facts (look at the RC stuff the Prof referenced some of which I copied and pasted for example) whereas non-faith schools do not (that's the comparative religion of RE). The "backed by science" bit is just something you've added after the event.

A fact is something that is proved to be true. I assumed you meant proved true through the methods of science. How else would something be proved to someone else?

Belief truths are values and traditions that we teach our children. God is a belief, not a fact. There is no way of proving God to another person - they either believe it or they don't. If no one can prove God, how is it taught as a fact?

If your objection is where religion is taught in English schools as true based on personal testimony and hearsay, that's the stuff people seem to be increasingly rejecting because it is a belief and there is a lack of proof and it doesn't add value to their lives. When enough people reject it, and think schools in their area can provide a good ethos and results while jettisoning this type of religious education, they will demand change in the way faith schools are funded. Some people retain belief in God because it provides some add-value to their lives but if they are in the minority they won't be able to stop changes to faith school funding.

I did look at the RC stuff - I copied and pasted some of it in my response to PD.