Author Topic: 'Repeal the 8th'  (Read 9123 times)

Nearly Sane

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'Repeal the 8th'
« on: April 04, 2018, 07:43:29 PM »
The Irish referendum on abortion is on May 25th. Below is a rather good pro repeal article.




https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/24/ann-enright-on-irelands-abortion-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb

Harrowby Hall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 08:49:21 AM »
Excellent piece.

I like the association of the "pro life" message as "tribal and symbolic" with the mentality that resulted in Brexit and Trump.
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Rhiannon

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 12:15:57 PM »
I got a lot from reading the article and agree with most of it, but am mightily pissed off at her proposed change in terminology. ‘Pregnant without consent’. Unless she means that to apply only to pregnancy that happens through rape, incest or abuse of power she is also relegating women to passive bodies to whom things happen. A vital part of being a sexually active women is taking responsibility for one’s body; I’ve always been aware that contraception can fail (and indeed I conceived because it did so); if you have consensual sex and you are still fertile you risk pregnancy and if you then become pregnant you are responsible for what happens next. It’s empowering. The law desperately needs changing in Ireland but disempowering women is not the way to do it.

I would change the term ‘unwanted pregnancy’ to something like ‘inappropriate’ pregnancy.

The article also reminded me very much of my pregnancies and the sense that my body wasn’t my own and that the people ‘in charge’ knew what was better for me than I did. This applied equally to the midwives pressuring me to have a vaginal delivery (a decision that nearly cost my daughter her life) as it did the obstetricians. You are just a baby and milk machine, even more if you have small children and fall pregnant again. I can’t recall ever being treated as less of a human being. You really are just meat.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 12:20:44 PM by Rhiannon »

SteveH

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 12:21:47 PM »
It is about time it was amended, women shouldn't have to come across the Irish sea for a termination.
It's also about time that we stopped using the anti-choice lobby's preferred term, "pro-life". They are nothing of the sort, unless they're also pacifist, anti-blood-sport vegans, but in any case life as such is not the point - happiness is (I'm a thorough-going rule-utilitarian ethically). Also, regarding a microscopic or near-microscopic bundle of at most a few hundred undifferentiated cells, which is what an embryo is pre-implantation, as fully human is bizarre, to say the least.
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Anchorman

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 01:31:49 PM »
Ironic that the N.I unionists used to highlight N.I as being different from the repressive, hidebound Republic.....now they try to say Unionism is a bastion against the Republic's liberalism.......
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 08:32:17 AM »
Also, regarding a microscopic or near-microscopic bundle of at most a few hundred undifferentiated cells, which is what an embryo is pre-implantation, as fully human is bizarre, to say the least.

Until the mid 19th century the Roman Catholic Church held that the embryo did not acquire a soul until the 40th day of pregnancy, this being the opinion of Thomas Aquinas having studied - not biblical - but Aristotelian "natural law". (I'm sure I have heard somewhere that only boys acquired souls at 40 days, girls - being inferior - had to wait until 90 days.) However, it is now the view that the soul enters the new life at the moment of conception. Presumably, then, the proper role of the scrotum is a pouch for carrying souls - which, no doubt, is the reason a male ballet dancer encloses his scrotum in a hard protective container.
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Robbie

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 04:28:58 PM »
It's also about time that we stopped using the anti-choice lobby's preferred term, "pro-life". They are nothing of the sort, unless they're also pacifist, anti-blood-sport vegans, but in any case life as such is not the point - happiness is (I'm a thorough-going rule-utilitarian ethically). Also, regarding a microscopic or near-microscopic bundle of at most a few hundred undifferentiated cells, which is what an embryo is pre-implantation, as fully human is bizarre, to say the least.

Wholeheartedly agree with you.

Rhiannon, your post was extremely thought provoking regarding 'unwanted' pregnancy which I would take to mean a pregnancy resulting from rape, incest, abuse - but the rest of what you said about 'inappropriate' or 'inconvenient' pregnancy was spot on.

I positively winced at what you were put through during pregnancy, if I'd experienced similar I doubt I'd have had another child. You're courageous - but I hope later experiences were less horrific.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018, 07:20:20 AM »
Looks as if this will be very close. My Irish relatives were pretty well all in favour of same sex marriage but it's about a fifty fifty split this time.


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« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 12:38:42 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 02:15:06 PM »
Until the mid 19th century the Roman Catholic Church held that the embryo did not acquire a soul until the 40th day of pregnancy, this being the opinion of Thomas Aquinas having studied - not biblical - but Aristotelian "natural law". (I'm sure I have heard somewhere that only boys acquired souls at 40 days, girls - being inferior - had to wait until 90 days.) However, it is now the view that the soul enters the new life at the moment of conception. Presumably, then, the proper role of the scrotum is a pouch for carrying souls - which, no doubt, is the reason a male ballet dancer encloses his scrotum in a hard protective container.

Not a pleasant thought that last sentence H H.

Regards ippy

wigginhall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 03:05:32 PM »
Amazing that contraception itself was illegal in Ireland.    I am expecting a yes vote.  My mother nearly died like Ms Halappanavar, as she had a Catholic obstetrician, not in Ireland.  Bastard.
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wigginhall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 04:36:06 PM »
The Irish journalist Philip Nolan made the interesting point that neither church nor state in Ireland have recognised conception as the beginning of life.   For example, if you miscarry, you are not allowed to have a funeral, nor a baptism.   If a baby is stillborn, it can't be registered as a birth if the baby is under 500 gms.   Life = weight.   

From Twitter.
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wigginhall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 04:51:05 PM »
I also enjoyed a tweet by Jewdas (who Corbyn visited) -

Brits Out/fuck the Pope/for a 32 county socialist republic/abortions for all.
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Robbie

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2018, 07:36:32 PM »
Amazing that contraception itself was illegal in Ireland.    I am expecting a yes vote.  My mother nearly died like Ms Halappanavar, as she had a Catholic obstetrician, not in Ireland.  Bastard.

Could she not have asked for another one? A second opinion is quite in order & always has been. Thankfully she didn't die.

The Irish journalist Philip Nolan made the interesting point that neither church nor state in Ireland have recognised conception as the beginning of life.   For example, if you miscarry, you are not allowed to have a funeral, nor a baptism.   If a baby is stillborn, it can't be registered as a birth if the baby is under 500 gms.   Life = weight.   

From Twitter.

Doesn't surprise me, double standards. Used to be same here.

Not a pleasant thought that last sentence H H.

Regards ippy

Never knew that, thought male ballet dancers were au naturel, will never see them in same light again. I know male swimmers/divers wear something that tucks it all away neatly.








« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 07:40:19 PM by Robbie »
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2018, 10:28:10 PM »
Never knew that, thought male ballet dancers were au naturel, will never see them in same light again. I know male swimmers/divers wear something that tucks it all away neatly.

Wandering off subject alert.

I recall once hearing some kind of fashion expert opine that men's ties were actually phallic symbols. Ballet dancers (and, it would seem, Olympic divers) stick to the old-fashioned codpiece, as worn by Henry VIII.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 12:45:10 PM »
Quote
I recall once hearing some kind of fashion expert opine that men's ties were actually phallic symbols.

I was always led to believe that a tie was more of a 'high-lighting'or 'sign posting' piece of clothing. As in 'look what's down here ladies'.

Whichever, it's a bloody silly piece of clothing.
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Nearly Sane

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Rhiannon

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2018, 11:23:58 PM »

wigginhall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2018, 01:21:26 PM »
Well done Ireland!  No more lonely flights for pregnant Irish women to another country.  Welcome home, Mna na hEiriann!
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Enki

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2018, 01:46:48 PM »
Congratulations, Ireland. What A breath of fresh air, and in my opinion, long overdue.
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Rhiannon

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2018, 01:51:26 PM »

wigginhall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2018, 02:01:18 PM »
Nice comment by the minister of health, Simon Harris,'instead of saying take the boat, we're now saying take our hand, and we will look after you.' 
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wigginhall

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2018, 08:50:08 AM »
Thankfully, it's over, I mean the horrors of the 8th.  I noticed during the campaign, how pro-choice people focus on the mother, and her health, and pro-life people focus on the foetus, while the mother is subordinate.  She may have to die, as Savita did.  No more.
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Gordon

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2018, 09:12:06 AM »
Good news indeed, though it does highlight that the situation in Northern Ireland is now so very different from the rest of the UK and the Republic of Ireland (once the legislation adjustments are made there).

Pressure on NI to change, which has already started, is a separate can of worms though since the DUP don't seem inclined to support changes in abortion law and since while Stormont is mothballed the Tories are unlikely to do anything to upset the DUP, given their dependence on DUP support to remain in power at Westminster. 

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2018, 12:28:14 PM »
I’m mindful that there’ll be people hurting today. I don’t ageee with them and it’s right that the law will change, but the majority of people in the ‘no’ camp largely were acting for what they believed to be the right reasons. They aren’t evil even though their beliefs resulted in great cruelty and loss.

These things are seldom straightforward.

Enki

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Re: 'Repeal the 8th'
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2018, 12:40:02 PM »
I’m mindful that there’ll be people hurting today. I don’t ageee with them and it’s right that the law will change, but the majority of people in the ‘no’ camp largely were acting for what they believed to be the right reasons. They aren’t evil even though their beliefs resulted in great cruelty and loss.

These things are seldom straightforward.

Completely agree with what you say, Rhi. On such an emotive subject as this, it is all too easy not to respect the other side's point of view.
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