No vaccines in Bible, therefore they are bad

[Anchorman]

Thanks for that, Anchor, I can just imagine it! Didn't people live in caves during the winter and only venture out for necessities?  They dried lots of food to sustain them throughout the cold season and didn't burn up much energy. Must say I like the idea of semi-hibernating - with mod cons.

Nope...unless there name was Flintstone, and even he had a house! They used cabes for storage, for painting and stuf, but if they were hunter-gatherers, they wouldn't have stayed long in any one place - thy'd have run out of prey for starters. When they started farming,they built shelters of grass, wood and in places like Skara Brae, stone....stone insulated with tons of muck on the outside, which provided heat in the Orkney climate (and possibly immunity from certain common diseas...hence no need for vaccine, even if they HAD 'em....seewotIdidthere? )

[Robbie]

I think hunter gatherers did their camps and got to live in caves during the winter, venturing out to hunt deer and fetch water but largely subsisting on dried food.

[Sassy]

Humans have created vaccines, NOT god!

God gave man the medicine and the knowledge for both. So God still creator.

[jeremyp]

God gave man the medicine and the knowledge for both. So God still creator.

Rubbish.

If you look at the history of vaccines, you'll see we had to work out every little detail for ourselves.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Didn't you come across this verse, 'The Lord your God giveth you the technology to create vaccines'? How remiss of you. 

Yet you are the first one to blame God for evil in the world! Double-standards, as usual!!

[Nearly Sane]

Yet you are the first one to blame God for evil in the world! Double-standards, as usual!!

This is you showing your continued inability to understand a hypothetical.

[SteveH]

Yet you are the first one to blame God for evil in the world! Double-standards, as usual!!

As someone said of someone else, LR doesn't so much disbelieve in God, as have a personal grudge against him.
However, she does have a point: if there is a God, and God is all-powerful and all-loving, why is there evil?

[SteveH]

How can I have a grudge against a god in which I don't believe? I do have a grudge against those who force their faith down the throats of others with threats if they don't convert.

"The god of the bible is an evil psycho". Sounds like a grudge to me! You are, as so often, treating a bit of wit with wooden literality.

[Robbie]

Funny, last night I looked at this thread, was up late and had telly on for a while; there was a court case (in the USA) involving someone who hadn't had their child vaccinated against measles, child got measles &infected others (who all recovered). It was far more complex than I'd ever imagined, never heard of such a case here. There are people exempt from vaccinations for religious reasons which didn't apply to this person. Anyway she got off despite people having misgivings about her anti-vacc stance.

[jeremyp]

"The god of the bible is an evil psycho". Sounds like a grudge to me! You are, as so often, treating a bit of wit with wooden literality.

Lord Voldemort is an evil psycho.

Do I have a grudge against him or have I just described a fictional literary character?

[SteveH]

Lord Voldemort is an evil psycho.

Do I have a grudge against him or have I just described a fictional literary character?

If you repeatedly banged on about how evil he was, however irrelevant to the discussion, it'd begin to look like a grudge.

[ippy]

God gave man the medicine and the knowledge for both. So God still creator.

You can't know for certain this god idea of yours does actually exist, there is no evidence that would or could support that it's even worth looking for this god idea of yours.

As for this vaccination woman in the OP it's quite obvious that there's a vacant space between her ears.

Regards Sass, ippy

[SteveH]

If you repeatedly banged on about how evil he was, however irrelevant to the discussion, it'd begin to look like a grudge.

The Biblical god would get on well with Voldemort, and may even outshine him where evil is concerned.

See what I mean?

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

As someone said of someone else, LR doesn't so much disbelieve in God, as have a personal grudge against him.
However, she does have a point: if there is a God, and God is all-powerful and all-loving, why is there evil?

Does she have a point though?

The truth (or otherwise) of the statement, "There is a God" is not affected by the existence of evil.

Reconciling the existence of evil with an all-powerful and all-loving God may be harder, but there is a solution for those for whom it is a problem: Ask Him!!

Here's the rub then: Is LittleRoses prepared to ask God why is there evil in the world? Would her faith in/relationship with God dependent on the answer? If it did, it would show that her faith is not in God Himself but arguments for Him. The relationship with God is based on trust and in terms of the modern philosophical arguments, Abraham is a good one to study because there are incidents in his life where he had to trust God, not only when he didn't have the answers at the time, but circumstances seem to indicate the opposite.

[Gordon]

Does she have a point though?

She does.

The truth (or otherwise) of the statement, "There is a God" is not affected by the existence of evil.

Try looking up the 'problem of evil' and get back to us.

Reconciling the existence of evil with an all-powerful and all-loving God may be harder, but there is a solution for those for whom it is a problem: Ask Him!!

No doubt you won't see the problem(s) in this approach.

Here's the rub then: Is LittleRoses prepared to ask God why is there evil in the world? Would her faith in/relationship with God dependent on the answer? If it did, it would show that her faith is not in God Himself but arguments for Him. The relationship with God is based on trust and in terms of the modern philosophical arguments, Abraham is a good one to study because there are incidents in his life where he had to trust God, not only when he didn't have the answers at the time, but circumstances seem to indicate the opposite.

Since if you did you wouldn't have posted the above drivel.

[SteveH]

The truth (or otherwise) of the statement, "There is a God" is not affected by the existence of evil.

You really do post the most complete and utter tosh. The existence of evil and suffering is a major argument against the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing and perfectly loving God. Vast libraries of books have been written trying to reconcile the two, some more convincing than others (yes, I know it's called "theodicy"), but you think you can dismiss it in a single sentence. You should try reading less cod-philosophy, and do more original thinking.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

The truth (or otherwise) of the statement, "There is a God" is not affected by the existence of evil.

You really do post the most complete and utter tosh. The existence of evil and suffering is a major argument against the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing and perfectly loving God. Vast libraries of books have been written trying to reconcile the two, some more convincing than others (yes, I know it's called "theodicy"), but you think you can dismiss it in a single sentence. You should try reading less cod-philosophy, and do more original thinking.

And like all postmodernists, you dismiss an argument not by showing where it is right or wrong, but by making pejorative statements about it. The truth (or otherwise) of what i wrote is not affected by calling it complete and utter tosh The trouble with postmodernism is that it does not recognize truth as absolute, therefore argue from a position of truth, so cannot appeal to an external frame of reference to verify its conclusions.

The so-called problem of evil argument is only a problem for those who take an intellectual-only approach to their faith. Their faith is not in the person of God, only in arguments either for His existence or against His existence. As such those in the former camp are in danger of believing in a 'god' of their own creation (the modern equivalent of creating an idol and bowing down to it).

For those who are in a relationship with God, the problem of evil may be a concern, but if they are really that bothered by it, they are more than welcome to seek God for a solution that satisfies them. They won't, because in reality, it isn't so much that it is a problem, it is more of an excuse to justify disbelief!

There is an incident in Abraham's life that illustrates not only the problem, but the solution. It's the one where God tells him to sacrifice his son Issac (Genesis 22). Now, if 21st century thinking was applied to that incident, they would conclude that Abraham was mistaken about what he heard, or that God was lying about his earlier promises (Genesis 15:4-5). If one stopped here, there is no way to resolve the problem, a bit like your so-called problem of evil.

Abraham showed that there is another way. He trusted God. He was not to know how things would play out. The verses below from Hebrews shed more light on the matter (emphasis mine):

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

So, what's the solution to the so-called problem of evil. To trust God! Some aren't prepared to do this because they want to be the final arbiter of truth. Like Eve, who fell for the lie of the serpent in the Garden of Eden (in essence, she was being told that she could decide for herself what truth is) and ended up being deceived, because the truth in question was defined by God, some human beings end up being deceived because in a matter they cannot answer, they are not prepared to look beyond themselves and either trust God or seek Him for an answer.

[jeremyp]

If you repeatedly banged on about how evil he was, however irrelevant to the discussion, it'd begin to look like a grudge.

When my nephew was young, he used to bang on about how cool a Star Wars character called General Grievous was all the time. Was my nephew a Sith lord?

[jeremyp]

Reconciling the existence of evil with an all-powerful and all-loving God may be harder

No it's impossible. An all powerful god would be able to eradicate evil. An all loving god would have the desire to eradicate evil. Evil exists in the world so either God is not all powerful or he is not all loving.

, but there is a solution for those for whom it is a problem: Ask Him!!

There is no solution for a logical contradiction.

There's also the problem that an evil god might lie to you and pretend to be good so that when he asks you to do evil things, you do them without question because you falsely believe your god would only ask you to do something if the ultimate outcome were good.

Is LittleRoses prepared to ask God why is there evil in the world?

As we have seen, you can't trust what a god would say, so LR judges your god by the actions he is reported (by his supporters) to have done. The reports are in, and they are not good.

[SteveH]

And like all postmodernists, you dismiss an argument not by showing where it is right or wrong, but by making pejorative statements about it. The truth (or otherwise) of what i wrote is not affected by calling it complete and utter tosh The trouble with postmodernism is that it does not recognize truth as absolute, therefore argue from a position of truth, so cannot appeal to an external frame of reference to verify its conclusions.

The so-called problem of evil argument is only a problem for those who take an intellectual-only approach to their faith. Their faith is not in the person of God, only in arguments either for His existence or against His existence. As such those in the former camp are in danger of believing in a 'god' of their own creation (the modern equivalent of creating an idol and bowing down to it).

For those who are in a relationship with God, the problem of evil may be a concern, but if they are really that bothered by it, they are more than welcome to seek God for a solution that satisfies them. They won't, because in reality, it isn't so much that it is a problem, it is more of an excuse to justify disbelief!

There is an incident in Abraham's life that illustrates not only the problem, but the solution. It's the one where God tells him to sacrifice his son Issac (Genesis 22). Now, if 21st century thinking was applied to that incident, they would conclude that Abraham was mistaken about what he heard, or that God was lying about his earlier promises (Genesis 15:4-5). If one stopped here, there is no way to resolve the problem, a bit like your so-called problem of evil.

Abraham showed that there is another way. He trusted God. He was not to know how things would play out. The verses below from Hebrews shed more light on the matter (emphasis mine):

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

So, what's the solution to the so-called problem of evil. To trust God! Some aren't prepared to do this because they want to be the final arbiter of truth. Like Eve, who fell for the lie of the serpent in the Garden of Eden (in essence, she was being told that she could decide for herself what truth is) and ended up being deceived, because the truth in question was defined by God, some human beings end up being deceived because in a matter they cannot answer, they are not prepared to look beyond themselves and either trust God or seek Him for an answer.

I am emphatically not a post-modernist - I think post-modernism leads to an inability to say anything meaningful about anything. I also believe that a meaningful relationship with God involves the emotions as well as (but certainly not instead of) the intellect.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

#55

Reconciling the existence of evil with an all-powerful and all-loving God may be harder

No it's impossible. An all powerful god would be able to eradicate evil. An all loving god would have the desire to eradicate evil. Evil exists in the world so either God is not all powerful or he is not all loving.

It is only impossible because that is how you choose to define the situation. Someone who trusts to the nature of God might instead ask questions such as.
•   What is evil?
•   Where did it come from (assuming it did come from somewhere)?
•   Why does God allow it to exist?
•   What has God done about its influence in the world?
•   etc, etc.

If God is all-loving, how has He demonstrated this? According to e.g. Romans 5 v 8:
But God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us
Or John 3 v 16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son; ...

, but there is a solution for those for whom it is a problem: Ask Him!!

There is no solution for a logical contradiction.

And as the incident with Abraham shows, the charge of logical contradiction can easily be applied incorrectly. If Abraham had trusted to his own reasoning, he would have concluded logical contradiction about his circumstances.

There's also the problem that an evil god might lie to you and pretend to be good so that when he asks you to do evil things, you do them without question because you falsely believe your god would only ask you to do something if the ultimate outcome were good.

That sounds more like a good description of how the devil works!

Is LittleRoses prepared to ask God why is there evil in the world?

As we have seen, you can't trust what a god would say, so LR judges your god by the actions he is reported (by his supporters) to have done. The reports are in, and they are not good.

It should be evident why this approach can’t work. LittleRoses only focuses on the bad things done by Christians, so therefore has to ignore all the good things done by Christians. She has decided in advance what conclusion she wants and selects the things that would appear to back it up.

[Gordon]

#55
It is only impossible because that is how you choose to define the situation. Someone who trusts to the nature of God might instead ask questions such as.
•   What is evil?
•   Where did it come from (assuming it did come from somewhere)?
•   Why does God allow it to exist?
•   What has God done about its influence in the world?
•   etc, etc.

Stephen Law observed, regarding the 'problem of evil' in his interview in the Philosophy Bites podcast, that even if you accepted that God allowed suffering in order to create situations for 'good' to be done then there should be no more suffering that was required to provide for all the 'good' there could be: and not a smidgen more, and yet suffering (such as the prey/predator situation) has been ubiquitous for as long as makes no difference, and long before humans too, and of course us humans inflict suffering for reasons other that survival! He regards the 'problem of evil' expressed in this way as a compelling argument against a god that allows evil so as to allow good: too much suffering has, and is, going on you see. I think he makes a good point - would you agree?

If God is all-loving, how has He demonstrated this? According to e.g. Romans 5 v 8:
But God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us
Or John 3 v 16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son; ...

So the story goes: how do you know this isn't fiction?

And as the incident with Abraham shows, the charge of logical contradiction can easily be applied incorrectly. If Abraham had trusted to his own reasoning, he would have concluded logical contradiction about his circumstances.
That sounds more like a good description of how the devil works!

So the story goes: how do you know this isn't fiction?

[SteveH]

Any modern parent who behaved as Abraham did, even if they stopped at the last moment and didn't murder their son at the behest of the voice in their head, would have their children taken into care in short order, and quite rightly.

[jeremyp]

#55
It is only impossible because that is how you choose to define the situation. Someone who trusts to the nature of God might instead ask questions such as.

Since the nature of God is what we are trying to understand here, coming in to the conversation already trusting the nature of your version of God counts as circular reasoning.

If God is all-loving, how has He demonstrated this? According to e.g. Romans 5 v 8:
But God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us
Or John 3 v 16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son; ...

God so hated the World that he required a blood sacrifice to avoid everybody being subject to eternal torment.

And as the incident with Abraham shows, the charge of logical contradiction can easily be applied incorrectly. If Abraham had trusted to his own reasoning, he would have concluded logical contradiction about his circumstances.

He also wouldn’t have tried to murder his own son.

Not that it matters, what happened in Abraham’s case has no bearing on the logical contradiction of an all-loving god, an all powerful god and there being evil in the World.

That sounds more like a good description of how the devil works!

How do you know that the Devil isn’t in charge and is not fooling you?

It should be evident why this approach can’t work. LittleRoses only focuses on the bad things done by Christians, so therefore has to ignore all the good things done by Christians. She has decided in advance what conclusion she wants and selects the things that would appear to back it up.

If God was all loving and all powerfiul, Christians wouldn’t do any bad things.

Oh, and you are just as guilty of of deciding in advance what conclusion you want. You condemn yourself out of your own mouth assuming you refer to yourself when you say “Someone trusting the nature of God”.

[ippy]

And like all postmodernists, you dismiss an argument not by showing where it is right or wrong, but by making pejorative statements about it. The truth (or otherwise) of what i wrote is not affected by calling it complete and utter tosh The trouble with postmodernism is that it does not recognize truth as absolute, therefore argue from a position of truth, so cannot appeal to an external frame of reference to verify its conclusions.

The so-called problem of evil argument is only a problem for those who take an intellectual-only approach to their faith. Their faith is not in the person of God, only in arguments either for His existence or against His existence. As such those in the former camp are in danger of believing in a 'god' of their own creation (the modern equivalent of creating an idol and bowing down to it).

For those who are in a relationship with God, the problem of evil may be a concern, but if they are really that bothered by it, they are more than welcome to seek God for a solution that satisfies them. They won't, because in reality, it isn't so much that it is a problem, it is more of an excuse to justify disbelief!

There is an incident in Abraham's life that illustrates not only the problem, but the solution. It's the one where God tells him to sacrifice his son Issac (Genesis 22). Now, if 21st century thinking was applied to that incident, they would conclude that Abraham was mistaken about what he heard, or that God was lying about his earlier promises (Genesis 15:4-5). If one stopped here, there is no way to resolve the problem, a bit like your so-called problem of evil.

Abraham showed that there is another way. He trusted God. He was not to know how things would play out. The verses below from Hebrews shed more light on the matter (emphasis mine):

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

So, what's the solution to the so-called problem of evil. To trust God! Some aren't prepared to do this because they want to be the final arbiter of truth. Like Eve, who fell for the lie of the serpent in the Garden of Eden (in essence, she was being told that she could decide for herself what truth is) and ended up being deceived, because the truth in question was defined by God, some human beings end up being deceived because in a matter they cannot answer, they are not prepared to look beyond themselves and either trust God or seek Him for an answer.

'For those who are in a relationship with God', oh dear?

Commiserations Sword, ippy