should all free treatment be stopped for smokers??

[Aruntraveller]

Silly old bat.
Surely it isn't just up to her. The medics involved, the hospital Trust, must be able to make a case and quickly.

Trent might know how it can be achieved.

I wish I did. I had some knowledge of reciprocal agreements when I was doing a spell as an Admissions Manager some 12 years ago. Even then, some agreements were more reciprocal than others. It was an incredibly complicated system. I suspect it has not changed. Our Trust, did in some cases turn a blind eye to some cases, as it was too difficult to establish whether reciprocal treatment was appropriate at different stages of treatment, so instead of trying to claw back money from patients who only qualified for certain parts of their treatment, they allowed all treatment to be done. That may have been tightened up in the intervening period.

I'm getting cold sweats just thinking about it.

[Robbie]

Not surprised Trent. Yet this poor man's case is so obviously a travesty of justice!He's no 'NHS tourist' or whatever they call them.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/10/denied-free-nhs-cancer-care-left-die-home-office-commonwealth

Thanks - that's awful. The poor man. They accept he has been here for a long time and paid taxes, so I don't see how it can be right for the hospital trust to deny him treatment because he does not have all the required immigration paperwork. There should be procedures for making an exception in this case, even if they are required to follow rules.

[Robbie]

I'mlookig for an update on this case, feel sure it will be favourable to him but want ocnfirmation.

[Sassy]

ok, the other day it seemed pretty universal that anyone who does not take a vaccine is dangerous and stupid, yet those who smoke cause themselves and others great harm, those getting fat and disabled harm themselves and take up time of already over worked medical staff and gp's, type 2 diabetes, according to many gp's is linked with being over weight...
those you claim pay in to the nhs, it is a small percentage of a wage, some never earn a wage, it in no way covers the extensive costs of the long term treatment brought about by their own stupidity...

I don't agree take the average man and his earnings.
Who has the largest part of his earnings after tax and insurance.
The Government have more than enough of the tax payers money. Compare the NHS and the wages of MP's and their rises.

The truth is they want the poor poorer and dying in corridors of emergency outlets because their is no beds. The bed crisis is due to closure of hospitals and emergency outlets so they die before they can reach help. JUST LIKE THE BAD OLD USA.

[ippy]

I don't agree take the average man and his earnings.
Who has the largest part of his earnings after tax and insurance.
The Government have more than enough of the tax payers money. Compare the NHS and the wages of MP's and their rises.

The truth is they want the poor poorer and dying in corridors of emergency outlets because their is no beds. The bed crisis is due to closure of hospitals and emergency outlets so they die before they can reach help. JUST LIKE THE BAD OLD USA.

Nothing unusual there Sass, you haven't got a clue.

Regards ippy

[Robbie]

MPs don't actually earn high salaries, Sass. I know they have had a pay rise but that was the first one they'd had for years.  An MPs salary was not as much as a head teacher or a GP, it was scandalous how poorly they were paid.n

Some people who work for the NHS are well paid too - I don't quite understand what you mean about that nor what is "the average man and his earnings" (or woman come to that).

However I do agree that the government has a lot of untapped funds & there's no reason for someone to go untreated.

[ekim]

However I do agree that the government has a lot of untapped funds & there's no reason for someone to go untreated.

...... and a National Debt of £1,670,432,000,000 and rising.

[Robbie]

Yeah, tell me about it! However I know for a fact that the gov has some money in a compartment, that many people do not claim or have been intimidated into not pursuing - was Disability Living Allowance & now PLP.

[jeremyp]

Why?

Especially when huge numbers (my local hospital, is the closest tothe UK's major airport) are treated free of charge at point of use having been transported direct from airport to casualty and vanish without paying a penny as soon as cured and prove impossible to trace for payment.

Can you tell us what this huge number is please.

[jeremyp]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/10/denied-free-nhs-cancer-care-left-die-home-office-commonwealth

This is where all this "give deserving people priority" stuff leads. We are forced to watch people like this man die. Id that what you really want?

[Owlswing]

Can you tell us what this huge number is please.

432 in-patients - medical and 204 in-patients mental - only figures I can find 2003/2004 prior to the opening of Terminal Five.

I asked a couple of members of Out Patients staff who are of the opinion that these are less that a third of those currently being treated.

Knowing kind of comment I am going to get about the above, I did ask, but I cannot name the people who spoke to me as, one, Management wouldn't like it and, two, neither would the Union.   

[jeremyp]

432 in-patients - medical and 204 in-patients mental - only figures I can find 2003/2004 prior to the opening of Terminal Five.

I asked a couple of members of Out Patients staff who are of the opinion that these are less that a third of those currently being treated.

Knowing kind of comment I am going to get about the above, I did ask, but I cannot name the people who spoke to me as, one, Management wouldn't like it and, two, neither would the Union.   

Those absolute numbers don't really tell us anything much. Is that a lot compared to the number of people treated altogether? Given that it is the closest hospital to Heathrow, don't you think the number of foreign nationals would be unusually high compared to the average across the UK?

Also, should the doctors and nurses refuse to treat them and just watch them die if they can't produce suitable documentation or a credit card?

[Owlswing]

Those absolute numbers don't really tell us anything much. Is that a lot compared to the number of people treated altogether? Given that it is the closest hospital to Heathrow, don't you think the number of foreign nationals would be unusually high compared to the average across the UK?

Also, should the doctors and nurses refuse to treat them and just watch them die if they can't produce suitable documentation or a credit card?

When you take your child to A & E with a severe asthma attack that their inhaler is not enough to help - asthma being a child-killer - and find that the Triage Nurse tells you that there is at least a three hour wait and you cannot hear more than three or four people speaking in English and in the first twenty minutes of your wait three ambulances come in direct from Heathrow with foreign nationals who are immedialtely attended to the relevant numbers pale into insignificance.

Also the quoted figures in my earlier post were in-patiants, they don't include out-patients whose stay was up to but less than 24-hours and are therefore not listed as in-patients.

Regardless of all this I am in no doubt that I am on a hiding to nothing in this matter, so I bow out before the weight of contrary opinions to my own as those contrary opinions are clearly those obtaining currently and there appears to be no chance of them being overturned due to political financial disinterest in doing so.

   

[Robbie]

Sounds like a bit of an exaggeration Owl. Also you don't know how many of the foreign nationals will pay for their treatment here, plenty do.

We don't have to pay for hospital treatment in EU countries - at present.

Do you really sit in A&E and listen to foreign accents?

[Rhiannon]

I can’t believe anyone comes here as a MH tourist.

[Nearly Sane]

I can’t believe anyone comes here as a MH tourist.

Indeed it would seem an odd thing. Anyway here's at least an attempt to validate some numbers on health tourism



https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourism-whats-cost/

[Robbie]

0.3%!

From previous conversations, Owlswing does know some unusual people.So he may know the three out of every hundred who present at A&E. Must say I've never been to A&E and taken note of people's accents, neither have I had a very long wait. I don't live near an airport though.

I'm very glad that if I go to Spain, France or Belgium (& other places), if I collapse I'll be treated.

[Rhiannon]

I can well believe that there must be a huge number of tourists at A&E near Heathrow. I can also believe that some travellers end up being sectioned while flying and can’t be sent home until the end of the period of their treatment. I’m not sure how many people would deliberately seek to get treatment here though.

[Owlswing]

Sounds like a bit of an exaggeration Owl. Also you don't know how many of the foreign nationals will pay for their treatment here, plenty do.

We don't have to pay for hospital treatment in EU countries - at present.

Do you really sit in A&E and listen to foreign accents?

Actually, of course, NHS treatment is NOT free - I paid for it every week for 52 years as does every single employed person under retirement age in the UK.

Free service - what bollocks! OK you don't pay at the time because you have paid in advance! AND you can be refused treatment if some knobhead political appointee decides your treatment is too expensive.

[Steve H]

Actually, of course, NHS treatment is NOT free - I paid for it every week for 52 years as does every single employed person under retirement age in the UK.

Free service - what bollocks! OK you don't pay at the time because you have paid in advance! AND you can be refused treatment if some knobhead political appointee decides your treatment is too expensive.

The official formula is "free at point of use", and long may it remain so.

[Robbie]

Actually, of course, NHS treatment is NOT free - I paid for it every week for 52 years as does every single employed person under retirement age in the UK.

Free service - what bollocks! OK you don't pay at the time because you have paid in advance! AND you can be refused treatment if some knobhead political appointee decides your treatment is too expensive.

I expect you still pay for the NHS out of your pension.

Do you object to paying for it & do you not want quick treatment if you need to see a doctor? I certainly have no objections, not one bit; my mum had good NHS treatment towards the end of her life. When her GP first thought she might have Ca. and needed to be seen quickly, she referred her to a consultant for an initial private consultation but the the consultant said there was no need, she could be fitted into NHS clinic. No complaints there, mum was well looked after until she died.She also had an emergency visit to A&E after a fall and was happy with that.

My sister has also had some NHS treatment which was excellent after a horse riding accident when her pelvis was fractured. When she had children she had Caesarians and was fine afterwards. She & her husband both work for the NHS.

However we all have anecdotes - maybe you have some not so good. Perhaps share rather than just sounding off about the NHS generally?

[jeremyp]

When you take your child to A & E with a severe asthma attack that their inhaler is not enough to help - asthma being a child-killer - and find that the Triage Nurse tells you that there is at least a three hour wait and you cannot hear more than three or four people speaking in English and in the first twenty minutes of your wait three ambulances come in direct from Heathrow with foreign nationals who are immedialtely attended to the relevant numbers pale into insignificance.

Yes that's right, if a child was in danger of dying because of asthma, the NHS staff would definitely put them to the back of the queue.

/sarcasm

Or let's put it another way. If a foreign parent brought their child in with a life threatening condition that will kill them without treatment would you like to be the one to tell them they must just watch their child die because foreign lives are less important than British ones?

Also the quoted figures in my earlier post were in-patiants, they don't include out-patients whose stay was up to but less than 24-hours and are therefore not listed as in-patients.

I'd still like to know if that is a lot.

Regardless of all this I am in no doubt that I am on a hiding to nothing in this matter, so I bow out before the weight of contrary opinions to my own as those contrary opinions are clearly those obtaining currently and there appears to be no chance of them being overturned due to political financial disinterest in doing so.

[Owlswing]

 So no-one on here has had someone left on a trolley in a corridor for a coupke of hours, had an operation postoned /cancelled, been refused treatment on the grounds of cost etc ad infinitum!

We pay millions per year to obtain a 'free' service while the MP's who make the decisions all go private!

Oh f**k it, who the Hell gives shit - I'll just be glad when I can eventually get an appointment with the Podiatry clinic so that the bleeding cracks in the soles of my feet can be treated and I can walk without pain again.

[Robbie]

I have known someone whose operation was cancelled because a more serious case came in & they found it quite distressing to be admitted to hospital, starved overnight for nothing. When it was all explained they were OK about it and were admitted again the following week. Also know someone on waiting list for hip replacement but is not in great discomfort at the mo, just accepts it. Should happen in about six months though. Not known anyone left on a trolley in a corridor, just read reports of such things.

Nothing to stop you going to your local podiatrist & if they think your foot condition is serious they'll write to the hospital on your behalf. So will your GP and GP surgeries have visiting podiatrists free of charge.

Owlswing your foot condition sounds horrendous & you do need to insist on being seen quickly - get others to support you.

If MPs 'go private' it's because they can choose when they are treated to fit in with commitments. Same goes for anyone who has private medical treatment & they're not all rich people - tho' wouldn't matter if they were, rich people are as entitled to choices as well as poor - many firms give medical insurance  to their employees as part of a package. Sometimes including spouses and children which is very useful. I had it at my previous employers, when I left there my husband added me to his medical insurance policy, our kids were on it until they were eighteen.

Anyone can go to A&E and be treated for an emergency - thank goodness!