Author Topic: 7 Types of Atheism  (Read 2547 times)

Nearly Sane

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 04:05:37 PM »

Have to say I find the review somewhat bitty.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/11/seven-types-atheism-john-gray-review-atheist-believer-material-world
Quick and merciful despatch of the Pinkerists and one's own pin up boy kneed in the plums by Eagleton. I didn't know how pleasurable the combination was.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2022, 03:37:18 PM »

Have to say I find the review somewhat bitty.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/11/seven-types-atheism-john-gray-review-atheist-believer-material-world

Four years after NS's post, I get round to reading the book. The older I get, the more I find Gray's 'anti-progress' stance to accurately sum up reality. He doesn't deny that science has continued to develop new and amazing technologies (and he wisely doesn't try to knock modern anaesthesia in medicine). But he finds little to suggest that humanity has advanced morally or ethically over thousands of years. As Vlad suggests, one of his pet bugbears is Dawkins, whose polyanna view of evolution he finds contradictory, as well as simply dressing up Christian utopianism in scientific guise. If we are governed by our 'selfish genes', that's it. We can't suddenly assume that humans are the exception and can override them (this he suggests is merely a restatement of the Christian view that humans are distinct from other animals).
May need to start a new thread on Gray if I feel inclined (the pink and red text above warns me that this is advisable, since the thread is so old)
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2022, 06:52:05 PM »
Actually, Dawkins doesn't feature much in these particular essays, but his direct forebears in evolutionary thought such as Julian Huxley do. And Gray's criticisms are very apposite and trenchant.
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jeremyp

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2022, 06:43:07 PM »
Four years after NS's post, I get round to reading the book. The older I get, the more I find Gray's 'anti-progress' stance to accurately sum up reality. He doesn't deny that science has continued to develop new and amazing technologies (and he wisely doesn't try to knock modern anaesthesia in medicine). But he finds little to suggest that humanity has advanced morally or ethically over thousands of years.
Really?

That seems like total bollocks to me. I mean, we don't approve of slavery any more do we?


Quote
As Vlad suggests, one of his pet bugbears is Dawkins, whose polyanna view of evolution he finds contradictory, as well as simply dressing up Christian utopianism in scientific guise. If we are governed by our 'selfish genes', that's it. We can't suddenly assume that humans are the exception and can override them (this he suggests is merely a restatement of the Christian view that humans are distinct from other animals).
May need to start a new thread on Gray if I feel inclined (the pink and red text above warns me that this is advisable, since the thread is so old)

I don't accept that Dawkins has a "Pollyanna" view on evolution. Humans are unique in that we are the only species that has (so far) attained a level of intelligence that allows us to understand and override our nature. So what?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2022, 07:01:13 PM »



I don't accept that Dawkins has a "Pollyanna" view on evolution. Humans are unique in that we are the only species that has (so far) attained a level of intelligence that allows us to understand and override our nature. So what?
I think he is quite wedded to the idea of human progress though and human improvement as having some kind of momentum.

As it turns out as evidenced by Pinker's recent rallying call to keep the enlightenment going, one has to ''keep the faith'' as it were and that suggests Human progress is not as automatic as once thought.

jeremyp

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2022, 01:40:54 PM »
I think he is quite wedded to the idea of human progress though and human improvement as having some kind of momentum.
I think it's undeniable that humans have made progress in the last few millennia.

Quote
As it turns out as evidenced by Pinker's recent rallying call to keep the enlightenment going, one has to ''keep the faith'' as it were and that suggests Human progress is not as automatic as once thought.
Nobody thinks it is automatic as far as I know.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2022, 11:02:23 PM »
I think it's undeniable that humans have made progress in the last few millennia.
Nobody thinks it is automatic as far as I know.
I think it's undeniable that the climate crisis andspecies extinction rate is also a product of the enlightenment.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2022, 04:27:47 AM »
I think it's undeniable that the climate crisis andspecies extinction rate is also a product of the enlightenment.
Fitless wuckery.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2022, 08:21:49 AM »
Fitless wuckery.
I am of course referring to Stephen Pinker's and others conception of the enlightenment which is the reference for the notion of progress. In Pinker's version human strife is replaced by commerce and industry. Which are also the drivers in climate crisis and the rate of species extinction.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2022, 08:47:46 AM »
I am of course referring to Stephen Pinker's and others conception of the enlightenment which is the reference for the notion of progress. In Pinker's version human strife is replaced by commerce and industry. Which are also the drivers in climate crisis and the rate of species extinction.
I'd agree that human progress over the past 150 years or so has been extremely beneficial to humans but pretty bad for other species and, in a general sense, for the planet.

However I'm not sure I'd tie this to the enlightenment per se (see what you are trying to do there Vlad) - rather this is driven by industrialisation, initiated within western societies and cultures, but certainly not limited to those societies. We might want to consider why this happened in western civilisations on such a scale and one element, to my mind, is that these cultures have typically seen humans as 'apart', 'better', 'superior' to other species and that non-human species and the environment are their playthings to be exploited. Not all human cultures have a similar mind-set with many recognising a more sustainable and mutual approach with nature.

SteveH

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2022, 09:11:02 AM »
Fitless wuckery.
Why? Drop the one- and two-word insults, and explain yourself!
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Nearly Sane

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2022, 09:39:59 AM »
Why? Drop the one- and two-word insults, and explain yourself!
No.

jeremyp

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2022, 02:16:17 PM »
I think it's undeniable that the climate crisis andspecies extinction rate is also a product of the enlightenment.

Yes, but we know it is happening, which is progress. And some people are trying to do something about it.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2022, 02:39:07 PM »
Yes, but we know it is happening, which is progress. And some people are trying to do something about it.
Prizes for scientists clearing up a scientific mess? Aren't you labouring somewhat to maintain the image of the scientist as ''the good guy.''

jeremyp

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2022, 04:34:38 PM »
Prizes for scientists clearing up a scientific mess? Aren't you labouring somewhat to maintain the image of the scientist as ''the good guy.''

I wouldn't describe it as a scientific mess so much as a human mess. Humans have been disrupting ecosystems for thousands of years.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2022, 05:19:29 PM »
I wouldn't describe it as a scientific mess so much as a human mess. Humans have been disrupting ecosystems for thousands of years.
So not much progress there then.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2022, 05:43:13 PM »
Really?

That seems like total bollocks to me. I mean, we don't approve of slavery any more do we?


Well, hopefully most of us don't. And it's worth noting that little of modern attitudes to the phenomenon have much to do with science (or in fact, 'enlightenment' thought - I've just noticed that Hume and Kant were thoroughly racist). It should be noted how close we are in time to attitudes which only lie a bus-ticket's width away from leading to slavery. Insofar as a whole host of scientific thinkers right up to modern times were completely racist (with H.G. Wells, the Webbs and Shaw throwing Eugenics into the mixture). I was surprised to learn that Julian Huxley belonged to this brigade - here he is in 1931:
"There is a certain amount of evidence that the Negro is an earlier product of human evolution than the Mongolian or the European, and as such might be expected to have advanced less, both in body and mind".
He kept quiet on such matters from the mid 30s (I wonder why?). Not that he had any further scientific data to change his mind, but he soon saw the horrors that such an attitude to race might bring. In fact we didn't get any real data to refute such views until Crick and Watson, and even then genetic studies had to wait some time to prove that there was no uniform racial difference in the peoples of Africa from the rest of the world. Genetic research has now revealed that there is far more genetic diversity among the African peoples than all the rest of the people on the planet.

So far so good, science does seem to advance knowledge positively, but perhaps not quite so objectively as we might like. There's much trumpeting of the 'scientific method' and the 'principle of falsification' - but don't those date merely date back to Karl Popper? Arthur Koestler in his book 'The Sleepwalkers' seems to indicate that scientific discoveries for a long time didn't proceed in any such manner.

I'm with Dawkins and other militant atheists in their opposition to various forms of religious fundamentalism (so as a matter of fact is John Gray), but denigrating all religion in favour of 'science' seems to be a huge miscalculation. Religion keeps springing up everywhere, and the attitude of western atheist liberal thinkers is not likely to have much effect on these matters. Let's not have any truck with the 'God of the gaps', though.

Worst of all, (something I haven't time to go into here) is the idea beloved of some western politicians that we can impose liberal democracy onto societies which have had no such tradition of thought as the west. Whenever this has been tried, it's been a disaster. The Islamic world, in particular, has had no period of critique of religion, no 'Enlightenment' period, and to try to graft alien western ideas on to these societies seems doomed to failure.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 01:49:07 AM by Dicky Underpants »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2022, 06:07:44 PM »
So not much progress there then.
The idea that we have somehow evolved beyond our base is just weird. But the idea that what we are is basically unchanged is also problematic for us. The prattle about 'consciouness' elsewhere illustrates the problem - we are aware of the issue but buggered if we can move beyond it...

Gray has moved to that position but only to criticise modernism. He's unable to see the problem it presents for his own position.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2022, 06:11:18 PM »
The idea that we have somehow evolved beyond our base is just weird. But the idea that what we are is basically unchanged is also problematic for us. The prattle about 'consciouness' elsewhere illustrates the problem - we are aware of the issue but buggered if we can move beyond it...

I was eventually going to say something just like that. Glad you've saved me the effort! :)
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Nearly Sane

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2022, 06:22:07 PM »
I was eventually going to say something just like that. Glad you've saved me the effort! :)
I wish there was any profundity to my confusion. It's one of my issues with Gray is that having eventually arrived here, he thinks it is significant.

jeremyp

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2022, 07:22:14 PM »
So not much progress there then.
I think being aware of our impact on the environment is huge progress.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 7 Types of Atheism
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2022, 07:25:24 PM »
I think being aware of our impact on the environment is huge progress.
And yet that impact is greater now than ever.