Author Topic: Muslim woman refused citizenship in France for not shaking hands. (Read 2176 times)

Nearly Sane · « **on:** April 20, 2018, 04:13:05 PM »

Personally who I touch is my business.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-43839655

Robbie · « **Reply #1 on:** April 20, 2018, 04:22:40 PM »

Agree.

trippymonkey · « **Reply #2 on:** April 21, 2018, 07:47:24 AM »

Yes but this is the thin edge of the wedge....
What else will she NOT do cos of a religion that considers itself vastly superior to ALL others ?!??!!?

Nick

Udayana · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2018, 09:48:01 AM »

Doesn't really seem like the "thin edge of a wedge". What kind of things are you thinking of?

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #4 on:** April 21, 2018, 10:01:51 AM »

Quote from: trippymonkey on April 21, 2018, 07:47:24 AM

Yes but this is the thin edge of the wedge....
What else will she NOT do cos of a religion that considers itself vastly superior to ALL others ?!??!!?

Nick

Slippery slope fallacy. Why should she have to do something that if she was germophobic she would be allowed not to do. She should have the same rights as everyone else.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2018, 10:26:46 AM »

Predictive text changed homophobic in my previous post to homophobic which has triggered the thought that I wonder what would happen if someone at the French citizenship ceremony refused to shake hands with an official because they were gay.

Udayana · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2018, 11:22:40 AM »

Probably ... would depend on whether the applicant were Muslim or not?

Robbie · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2018, 01:10:57 PM »

Quote from: trippymonkey on April 21, 2018, 07:47:24 AM

Yes but this is the thin edge of the wedge....
What else will she NOT do cos of a religion that considers itself vastly superior to ALL others ?!??!!?

Nick

How predictable, there only has to be a whiff of 'Islam' or 'Muslim' in a thread title & you pounce with your excessive tabloid headline punctuation.

There are plenty of things people will not do because of their beliefs - all sorts of beliefs - & are not forced to do them. Orthodox Jews also do not shake hands with opposite sex, some wear a particular type of dress, do you object to any of that too?

I wouldn't dream of taking it for granted that someone wants to shake hands & can greet & receive greetings courteously without touching them.

trippymonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2018, 07:23:38 AM »

Fine but why is a MUSLIM woman being used in this issue ?!?!?

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2018, 08:04:04 AM »

Fine but why is a MUSLIM woman being used in this issue ?!?!?

Is it not because France, as a secular country, puts its secularity and secular values above religious practices - or above practices which appear to be influenced by religion?

The basic principles of the French republic - égalité, fraternité et liberté - are each challenged by her action. The official and the subsequent court felt that they witness behaviour which denies the basic values of French life.

(... And before Vlad succumbs to the Pavlovian reactions he suffers when "secular" is mentioned - most of the churches in France are the property of the French state.)

Sriram · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2018, 08:33:51 AM »

If they are truly secular...the French should respect the woman's right not to shake hands. Why is shaking hands a fundamental requirement for French citizenship anyway? Touching someone is ones own choice. You can't force it.

I hate shaking hands too (like many Hindus)....preferring a polite folding of hands in 'namaste'. We don't know where someones hands have been!

Udayana · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2018, 08:52:53 AM »

Quote from: Harrowby Hall on April 22, 2018, 08:04:04 AM

Fine but why is a MUSLIM woman being used in this issue ?!?!?

Is it not because France, as a secular country, puts its secularity and secular values above religious practices - or above practices which appear to be influenced by religion?

The basic principles of the French republic - égalité, fraternité et liberté - are each challenged by her action. The official and the subsequent court felt that they witness behaviour which denies the basic values of French life.

(... And before Vlad succumbs to the Pavlovian reactions he suffers when "secular" is mentioned - most of the churches in France are the property of the French state.)

No, it is just basic racism. Humiliate anyone that can be seen not to conform.

Udayana · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2018, 08:56:12 AM »

Quote from: Sriram on April 22, 2018, 08:33:51 AM

...
I hate shaking hands too (like many Hindus)....preferring a polite folding of hands in 'namaste'. We don't know where someones hands have been!

hmm ... we do know.

Always wear gloves and carry a disinfectant spray

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2018, 08:57:50 AM »

No, Sriram, you have misunderstood this situation. It is not that she did not shake hands but the reason she gave for not shaking hands.

France is a country in which shaking hands is de rigeur. It is an important daily ritual.

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2018, 09:02:45 AM »

Quote from: Udayana on April 22, 2018, 08:52:53 AM

No, it is just basic racism. Humiliate anyone that can be seen not to conform.

The topic here is religion not racism.

I would agree that France is not as integrated as Britain (for the most part) but it is not a country of institutionalised racism.

ippy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2018, 03:43:43 PM »

If I were French I would probably have some sympathy with the French authorities on this one, on taking an over all view, not just the one in front of me, the shaking of hands.

ippy

Robbie · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2018, 03:49:02 PM »

So someone who wishes not to shake hands has to give a reason for not doing so? I think what Sririam suggested, "Namaste", joining hands with a nod, is perfectly acceptable - and rather charming - as is a big smile and just saying, "Hello". Muslims aren't the only people of religion who don't go around shaking hands, there's no reason for the woman's religion to be highlighted.

Singers and actors don't like to do it and always carry hand sanitiser with them.

I'm happy to shake hands but wait for the other person to make the first move if I don't know them.

floo · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2018, 05:29:27 PM »

I am happy to shake hands, but objected to being hugged by people I don't know well.

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2018, 06:00:18 PM »

Quote from: Robbie on April 22, 2018, 03:49:02 PM

... Muslims aren't the only people of religion who don't go around shaking hands, there's no reason for the woman's religion to be highlighted.

Robbie

From the news item:

Quote

The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.

Robbie · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2018, 06:16:30 PM »

I know she said that, I read the article but that's no reason for the media to make such a big thing out of it. There are other religions with similar rules.

I'd have thought everyone nowadays knows that Muslims don't go around shaking hands, no big deal, no reason to make more out of a Muslim's etiquette than anyone else's.

Wouldn't happen here.

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2018, 07:07:15 PM »

It isn't "the media" making "a big thing" about it. It is the French state.

Her refusal to shake the official's hand was identified as a reluctance to accept the values of the country for which she was applying for citizenship and led to the refusal of citizenship,

This refusal was was reinforced by a decision in the French courts. Her behaviour indicated that by not shaking hands with a man she did not accept the principle of equality and that she lacked the freedom to behave as she wanted not as her religion demanded.

Quote

It wouldn't happen here.

Exactly. And this, perhaps, highlights a difference between living in a Common Law jursidiction and living in a Legal Code jurisdiction.

Sriram · « **Reply #21 on:** April 23, 2018, 07:47:23 AM »

There was a similar problem some years back about a woman who did not wear a bikini or something. The French seem to be particularly difficult people to live with!

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2018, 08:43:35 AM »

No, Sriram.

Just a few kilometres along the coast where that incident occurred, a few days earlier a young man had driven a truck into a crowd of holiday-makers killing a large number of them. He did so in the name of Allah.

The maire of the beach resort considered the bhurka-on-the-beach just a step too far. It could have been a suicide bomber.

... And it wasn't some years back. It was 2017.

Robbie · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2018, 06:32:18 PM »

What does that have to do with a woman not wanting to shake hands for a cultural or a religious reason? Are you saying she is likely to commit an act of terrorism? Or are we supposed to be suspicious of anyone of the same religion as terrorists?
Like here - suspicion of those - all - with Irish accents during the 'Troubles'.

Pah! Treat everyone as an individual and respect differences.

trippymonkey · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2018, 08:24:58 PM »

Yeah Just like Muslims do in accordance with Quranic values ?!?!?!?

News:

Author Topic: Muslim woman refused citizenship in France for not shaking hands. (Read 2176 times)

floo