Author Topic: Trouble at mill  (Read 28102 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 09:56:52 AM »
What ? No it doesn't. Atheism is just about not believing in gods.
And the Abrahamic God is the source of morality. Having dispensed with that God, Atheism is thus confronted with coming up with alternative atheistic explanations of either or both why things are and/or how things are.
I doubt very much that you are without these.

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10406
  • God? She's black.
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 10:03:48 AM »
Morality can be explained evolutionarily. A society which praised theft and random violence, and condemned honesty and peaceability, would collapse in short order.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 10:05:13 AM »
And the Abrahamic God is the source of morality.

This is a joke, right?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

splashscuba

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1956
  • might be an atheist, I just don't believe in gods
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 10:06:19 AM »
And the Abrahamic God is the source of morality.
Nope
Quote
Having dispensed with that God, Atheism is thus confronted with coming up with alternative atheistic explanations of either or both why things are and/or how things are.
Haven't dispensed with gods. I can't because I don't believe in them.
Quote
I doubt very much that you are without these.
Without what ?


Don't understand
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 10:09:49 AM »
Morality can be explained evolutionarily. A society which praised theft and random violence, and condemned honesty and peaceability, would collapse in short order.
That doesn't quite explain immorality though.
Aren't theft and violence part and parcel of the Darwinian struggle? Why even use then the term morality if it's all just behaviour?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2018, 10:11:59 AM »
This is a joke, right?
Not at all that's what Abrahamic monotheists believe. Do you have an alternative?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2018, 10:18:00 AM »
Not at all that's what Abrahamic monotheists believe. Do you have an alternative?
Say I don't - so what?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2018, 10:26:10 AM »
Oh, come on, PF: after the endless scandals about sexual abuse by clergy in the RC, Anglican, and other churches, and the cover-ups for decades, one case, dealt with quickly and firmly by the Yank atheists, rather pales into insignificance.
How long were people aware of the allegations about Silverman and Krauss before their various suspensions and terminations and link severences this year?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2018, 10:29:04 AM »
How long were people aware of the allegations about Silverman and Krauss before their various suspensions and terminations and link severences this year?
Dunno. And your point, caller?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2018, 10:31:09 AM »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2018, 10:36:03 AM »
Are you interested?
In what? As has already been covered, I hope that any abuses that have happened are dealt with properly and thoroughly. I have no particular interest in the cases, any more than the Kevin Spacey case. And once again, I ask what point are you trying to make?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2018, 10:39:27 AM »
In what? As has already been covered, I hope that any abuses that have happened are dealt with properly and thoroughly. I have no particular interest in the cases, any more than the Kevin Spacey case. And once again, I ask what point are you trying to make?
High profile campaigning atheists break links with each other over allegations of impropriety, financial issues and misogyny.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2018, 10:41:06 AM »
High profile campaigning atheists break links with each other over allegations of impropriety, financial issues and misogyny.
And? that doesn't really seem to be a point rather it's a way of summarising what has happened. Do you have a point that you want to make about it?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2018, 10:50:23 AM »
And? that doesn't really seem to be a point rather it's a way of summarising what has happened. Do you have a point that you want to make about it?
Well ''walls of silence'' and past playing down of issues in favour of ''zealous secularism'' are mentioned within the links but as you say that is summarising.
No I have no further point other than to inform or any further points not raised by my posts.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2018, 10:54:06 AM »
Well ''walls of silence'' and past playing down of issues in favour of ''zealous secularism'' are mentioned within the links but as you say that is summarising.
No I have no further point other than to inform or any further points not raised by my posts.
Thank you for the information.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2018, 08:07:26 AM »
On a recent survey of NSS Humanist sites I made I notice they are bit light on the Silverman and Krauss allegations which has hit non religious America. So light there seems to be no mention at all in the news and opinion. This would surely be a failure of self reflection considering the transatlantlic co-operation of atheists and the use of American atheist ematerial and the coverage given to Krauss by HumanistUK as presenting the Darwin day lecture last year. The attitude would surely account as evidence when the matter of 'appropriate response' is eventually weighed up.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2018, 10:33:23 AM »
You are still talking as if atheist are part of some big community with shared rules, structures, ways of seeing things and so on. They aren't. The behaviour if one atheist doesn't reflect on other atheists. As has been said, the alleged behaviour of these atheists has no more impact on other atheists than the alleged behaviour of, for example, Kevin Spacey. Such behaviour is deplorable no matter who engages in it.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2018, 10:49:09 AM »
You are still talking as if atheist are part of some big community with shared rules, structures, ways of seeing things and so on. They aren't. The behaviour if one atheist doesn't reflect on other atheists. As has been said, the alleged behaviour of these atheists has no more impact on other atheists than the alleged behaviour of, for example, Kevin Spacey. Such behaviour is deplorable no matter who engages in it.
I am not that naïve but I think atheists would rather be seen as unified than disparate which unfortunately, the Krauss/Silverman affairs has left it with some actively denying, some wishing play down some reluctantly going public and others showing relief that some kind of cat is out of the bag.

A close reader of the thread would have spotted that there are I believe implications for public atheism in terms of Who knew, what did they know and what they knew about it and many organisations such as American atheists, American Humanists, FFRF, Center for enquiry have publicly dissociated themselves from the individuals concerned.

One must question though other organisations such as Humanist UK and NSS whose websites seem completely oblivious to the issues. This IMV is puzzling since HumanistUK celebrated Krauss as the speaker at their Darwin Day Lecture in 2017 on their website.

Also we must ask whether Dr Krauss is still an honorary associate of the NSS. When I try to access his biography on the list of Honorary Associates I get directed to the home page.

Finally Maeght I think we ought to question the ability and desire of atheists who are represented corporatively to fragment into an unconnected population of individuals when trouble brews as expressed in your statement.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 10:54:43 AM by Private Frazer »

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2018, 11:21:41 AM »
I am not that naïve but I think atheists would rather be seen as unified than disparate ...

Don't think so. I cetainky don't.

Quote
....which unfortunately, the Krauss/Silverman affairs has left it with some actively denying, some wishing play down some reluctantly going public and others showing relief that some kind of cat is out of the bag.

Atheist euth different individual takes on it. Not a surprise really.

Quote
A close reader of the thread would have spotted that there are I believe implications for public atheism ....

What is public atheism exactly?

Quote
.... terms of Who knew, what did they know and what they knew about it and many organisations such as American atheists, American Humanists, FFRF, Center for enquiry have publicly dissociated themselves from the individuals concerned.

That seems to be your interpretation.

Quote
One must question though other organisations such as Humanist UK and NSS whose websites seem completely oblivious to the issues. This IMV is puzzling since HumanistUK celebrated Krauss as the speaker at their Darwin Day Lecture in 2017 on their website.

Allegations have been made but nothing proven as yet I believe. What do you think these organisations should be pytting on their websites?

Quote
Also we must ask whether Dr Krauss is still an honorary associate of the NSS. When I try to access his biography on the list of Honorary Associates I get directed to the home page. [/quote,]

Again, allegations have been made but nothing proven yet has it?

Quote
Finally Maeght I think we ought to question the ability and desire of atheists who are represented corporatively to fragment into an unconnected population of individuals when trouble brews as expressed in your statement.

No such thing as corporatively representative atheists.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2018, 11:43:53 AM »
Don't think so. I cetainky don't.

Atheist euth different individual takes on it. Not a surprise really.

What is public atheism exactly?

That seems to be your interpretation.

Allegations have been made but nothing proven as yet I believe. What do you think these organisations should be pytting on their websites?

No such thing as corporatively representative atheists.
I disagree many atheists on this forum appeal to the humanist UK organisation for facts, figures and ethos and also to the NSS.

The crisis for these organisations is that a significant their main raft against religion is institutional abuse and the suppression of it's exposure. American equivalents have largely come out against it after the latest round of allegations went public.
The puzzle is the apparent and comparative silence of their British counterparts who have feted individuals concerned, one to the point of honorary association. To avoid the charge of whitewashing the NSS should have justified its variance with it's American counterparts but moreover for me is the mystery of Dr Krauss's biography on the NSS which IMV casts doubt as to his current NSS status. This doesn't IMV look good.

 

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2018, 12:08:53 PM »
I disagree many atheists on this forum appeal to the humanist UK organisation for facts, figures and ethos and also to the NSS.

They may use those organisations as sources of information, but they also use lots of other sources. That's what we do.

Quote
The crisis for these organisations is that a significant their main raft against religion is institutional abuse and the suppression of it's exposure. American equivalents have largely come out against it after the latest round of allegations went public.

A word missing there perhaps? Could you give evidence please that such comments are significant part of what these organisations say.

Quote
The puzzle is the apparent and comparative silence of their British counterparts who have feted individuals concerned, one to the point of honorary association. To avoid the charge of whitewashing the NSS should have justified its variance with it's American counterparts but moreover for me is the mystery of Dr Krauss's biography on the NSS which IMV casts doubt as to his current NSS status. This doesn't IMV look good.

No puzzle. Allegations have been made but nothing has been proven. What would you want them to say exactly?

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32502
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2018, 01:35:59 PM »
And the Abrahamic God is the source of morality.
The god about whom it is said he sped out every living thing on Earth in a flood? The one that demands we pay homage to a human sacrifice or burn in hell? Nope.

Anyway, got any evidence that your moral framework comes directly from God?


Quote
Having dispensed with that God, Atheism is thus confronted with coming up with alternative atheistic explanations of either or both why things are and/or how things are.


That is true, but the "morality comes from God" was always a non answer. It's just another "goddidit" moment.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2018, 04:22:38 PM »
And the Abrahamic God is the source of morality.

The Abrahamic God appears in many guises, and the morality is so various and contradictory, that to posit "it" as the source of morality is astounding. In fact, "the" Abrahamic God is so differing in his various appearances through sundry prophets, that to refer to "it" in the singular is not very instructive.

Let us know how you square the morality of the God of Noah and Abraham with that of Micah or Ecclesiastes, and then we can start a sensible conversation.
By the way, ideas evolve in the Old Testament, just as life itself does.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2018, 06:41:51 PM »
The Abrahamic God appears in many guises, and the morality is so various and contradictory, that to posit "it" as the source of morality is astounding. In fact, "the" Abrahamic God is so differing in his various appearances through sundry prophets, that to refer to "it" in the singular is not very instructive.

Let us know how you square the morality of the God of Noah and Abraham with that of Micah or Ecclesiastes, and then we can start a sensible conversation.
By the way, ideas evolve in the Old Testament, just as life itself does.

Indeed it does, Dicky, and you don’t need to read very far in to find it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative


Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2018, 09:41:06 PM »
No puzzle. Allegations have been made but nothing has been proven. What would you want them to say exactly?
So what is his status in the National Secular Society then. Is he still an honorary associate or not?