Author Topic: Trouble at mill  (Read 28174 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2018, 11:04:58 AM »
I am pleased for them that Humanists UK now have a NHS chaplain who is a now team leader. But are the National Secular Society? A plea from a junior Doctor to scrap chaplaincy spending is/was posted prominently on their home page.
 

SteveH

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2018, 12:42:39 PM »
The National Secular Society is the organisation for extreme headbangers among the non-religious. Humanists UK is much more moderate and reasonable. Comparing the two is like comparing the Exclusive Brethren with the Church of England on the Christian side.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2018, 03:59:27 PM »
Assuming god exists, its idea of morality is not one I would wish to espouse. Its idea of love is my idea of hate.
If God exists I for one would want to get to know God as he is not how I've been told he is by ''the slick'' as you strike me as having done.
I think you want a God you can hate.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2018, 04:05:05 PM »
The National Secular Society is the organisation for extreme headbangers among the non-religious. Humanists UK is much more moderate and reasonable. Comparing the two is like comparing the Exclusive Brethren with the Church of England on the Christian side.
I sympathise with you entirely although there are many with a foot in both camps. I would cheerfully add my support to Copson and Khorsandi if it came to a Rumble with Sanderson and Porteous wood.(from the end of a dodgy telephone line of course)

Humanist chaplains of course pose a dilemma for those for whom campaigning against a once solely religious hospital chaplaincy was one of their main rafts.

Now there are humanist chaplains doing the same jobs as religious chaplains where does that leave anti chaplaincy? Saying ''Oh humanist chaplains are OK'' would make a mockery of their anti privilege stance. The dilemma is theirs.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 04:17:55 PM by Private Frazer »

ippy

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2018, 11:48:46 PM »
I sympathise with you entirely although there are many with a foot in both camps. I would cheerfully add my support to Copson and Khorsandi if it came to a Rumble with Sanderson and Porteous wood.(from the end of a dodgy telephone line of course)

Humanist chaplains of course pose a dilemma for those for whom campaigning against a once solely religious hospital chaplaincy was one of their main rafts.

Now there are humanist chaplains doing the same jobs as religious chaplains where does that leave anti chaplaincy? Saying ''Oh humanist chaplains are OK'' would make a mockery of their anti privilege stance. The dilemma is theirs.

I'll give it a try, it's O K to have chaplains of any order Vlad, including Humanists, but those supplying them should be the ones funding them, their's no secularist anti chaplain movement within the N S S, Vlad.

Regards ippy

Maeght

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2018, 03:49:55 AM »
I sympathise with you entirely although there are many with a foot in both camps. I would cheerfully add my support to Copson and Khorsandi if it came to a Rumble with Sanderson and Porteous wood.(from the end of a dodgy telephone line of course)

Humanist chaplains of course pose a dilemma for those for whom campaigning against a once solely religious hospital chaplaincy was one of their main rafts.

Now there are humanist chaplains doing the same jobs as religious chaplains where does that leave anti chaplaincy? Saying ''Oh humanist chaplains are OK'' would make a mockery of their anti privilege stance. The dilemma is theirs.

No dilemma if the argument was that chaplains shouldn't be just religious


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2018, 07:17:54 AM »
I'll give it a try, it's O K to have chaplains of any order Vlad, including Humanists, but those supplying them should be the ones funding them, their's no secularist anti chaplain movement within the N S S, Vlad.

Regards ippy
The Humanist UK chaplain is working for the NHS and the NSS are against the NHS paying? Any specific reference on this or any Humanist chaplains on the NSS?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/09/nhs-appoints-humanist-to-lead-chaplaincy-team-lindsay-van-dijk
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 07:42:51 AM by Private Frazer »

ippy

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2018, 02:07:20 PM »
The Humanist UK chaplain is working for the NHS and the NSS are against the NHS paying? Any specific reference on this or any Humanist chaplains on the NSS?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/09/nhs-appoints-humanist-to-lead-chaplaincy-team-lindsay-van-dijk

I've had to sit down and recover Vlad, you're right for once.

The Humanist organisation should be funding their own representative, it looks like I agree with you?

regards ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2018, 08:04:09 AM »
I've had to sit down and recover Vlad, you're right for once.

The Humanist organisation should be funding their own representative, it looks like I agree with you?

regards ippy
Yes we are in agreement that there is conflict between Humanist UK and NSS if as you say the NSS line is not to fund any chaplains.
But this remember is a conflict between two groups with broadly membership of the same people certainly in their celebrity quarters.
I wonder how the NSS have expressed their dissatisfaction with Humanism UK on this matter?

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2018, 04:43:19 PM »
The moral standard is God since the moral standard is love and God is love.

Irrespective of the woolliness implied by the word 'love' - as NS has pointed out - you previously said that  "the Abrahamic God is the source of morality". Several here have pointed out that some of the accounts of the actions of the 'Abrahamic God' are to say the least difficult to square with any idea of 'love', however loosely defined. Are you going to face up to this anomaly, are you going to retreat into Marcionite mode (or merely cherry-pick) and say that the bits of the Bible where God reveals his love are the bits you choose? If the latter, I'd like to know your criteria. If you accept the whole caboodle of the biblical accounts as revealing God's love, as do the fundamentalists*, then I'd like to know how you think some of the accounts, that most would say reveal nothing but brutality, demonstrate this quality.

*Of course, the fundamentalists would say that another of God's qualities is his 'justice', but I can't help thinking that this is depicted as being somewhat - rough.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #110 on: May 01, 2018, 06:19:13 PM »
Irrespective of the woolliness implied by the word 'love' - as NS has pointed out - you previously said that  "the Abrahamic God is the source of morality". Several here have pointed out that some of the accounts of the actions of the 'Abrahamic God' are to say the least difficult to square with any idea of 'love', however loosely defined. Are you going to face up to this anomaly, are you going to retreat into Marcionite mode (or merely cherry-pick) and say that the bits of the Bible where God reveals his love are the bits you choose? If the latter, I'd like to know your criteria. If you accept the whole caboodle of the biblical accounts as revealing God's love, as do the fundamentalists*, then I'd like to know how you think some of the accounts, that most would say reveal nothing but brutality, demonstrate this quality.

*Of course, the fundamentalists would say that another of God's qualities is his 'justice', but I can't help thinking that this is depicted as being somewhat - rough.
Can a moral relativist come out with ANY definition of Good or Bad if not then they have no business waffling on about people's interpretation of the word love

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2018, 06:23:52 PM »
Can a moral relativist come out with ANY definition of Good or Bad if not then they have no business waffling on about people's interpretation of the word love
So what is love then? You know the thing you were asked and didn't answer.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2018, 04:18:41 PM »
Can a moral relativist come out with ANY definition of Good or Bad if not then they have no business waffling on about people's interpretation of the word love

So therefore we just have to accept that genocide, demanding filial sacrifice without question, killing innocent children, threatening eternal torments for simply not believing in a divine something-or-other, are all aspects of "love" embodied by the Abrahamic God, and accepted by you? And accepted completely uncritically as far as I can see. O waffler to beat all wafflers.


I note that the "Binding of Isaac" has caused endless perplexity among the religiously inclined, because they have a sense that such an episode cannot be squared with any idea of "good". From Maimonides to Kierkegaard, the hair-tearing has gone on down the ages. Some of the explanations are ludicrous in the extreme. Former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sachs has related a few, claiming that the episode shows an attempt by the Jews to distance themselves from the surrounding tribes, among whom child sacrifice was rife. That in itself tends to provoke dirision (for old Abe is about to do just that), but perhaps the most absurd of all is the idea that God tested Abraham to display that he wasn't afraid to sacrifice his son, even though there was never the intention of continuing through to actual murder.

Of such knickers-in-a-twist episodes are the lives of believers made, but at least they attempt to arrive at a picture of moral consistency, rather than making sweeping statements without attempt to justify them.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 04:38:22 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #113 on: May 03, 2018, 04:32:18 PM »
So therefore we just have to accept that genocide, demanding filial sacrifice without question, killing innocent children, threatening eternal torments for simply not believing in a divine something-or-other, are all aspects of "love" embodied by the Abrahamic God, and accepted by you? And accepted completely uncritically as far as I can see. O waffler to beat all wafflers.
No we just have to accept that you are misusing your reference material and deliberately editing out Genesis where from the off Mankind is at total peace with itself and God and chucks all that away. Whatever you might feel about the justice of that we have a picture of the perfect world you are trying to plead for. The bible is sympathetic with you.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2018, 04:45:00 PM »
No we just have to accept that you are misusing your reference material and deliberately editing out Genesis where from the off Mankind is at total peace with itself and God and chucks all that away. Whatever you might feel about the justice of that we have a picture of the perfect world you are trying to plead for. The bible is sympathetic with you.

Yes, I understand that interpretation of the myth*, but it is not consistent with the evidence of evolution, or the evidence of archaeology. There never was a golden age, no as far as I can see will there ever be. Shit happens; the best we can do is to try and mitigate the situation closest to hand, and that may also prove calamitous. There is no miraculous salvation, and where we have seen the attempts of theocracies to govern societies, the results have been to say the least a mixed blessing.
I suppose that the mediaeval Church had a few good points, as did Islamic Cordoba.....


*I should point out that the OT Jews weren't particularly interested in that Adam and Eve myth anyway - it never appears again in the OT. What they were concerned with was breaking of covenants, of which there were about five. Take your pick.
St Paul was the Adam and Eve apologist, and he certainly needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 04:50:48 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #115 on: May 03, 2018, 04:51:11 PM »
No we just have to accept that you are misusing your reference material and deliberately editing out Genesis where from the off Mankind is at total peace with itself and God and chucks all that away. Whatever you might feel about the justice of that we have a picture of the perfect world you are trying to plead for. The bible is sympathetic with you.
Who is 'we'?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #116 on: May 03, 2018, 06:17:41 PM »
Yes, I understand that interpretation of the myth*, but it is not consistent with the evidence of evolution, or the evidence of archaeology. There never was a golden age, no as far as I can see will there ever be. Shit happens; the best we can do is to try and mitigate the situation closest to hand, and that may also prove calamitous. There is no miraculous salvation, and where we have seen the attempts of theocracies to govern societies, the results have been to say the least a mixed blessing.
I suppose that the mediaeval Church had a few good points, as did Islamic Cordoba.....


*I should point out that the OT Jews weren't particularly interested in that Adam and Eve myth anyway - it never appears again in the OT. What they were concerned with was breaking of covenants, of which there were about five. Take your pick.
St Paul was the Adam and Eve apologist, and he certainly needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Firstly it's a story. Secondly it states God's ideal. So if you are going to use the bible to prove that God is the villain you undo your argument if you are caught as you have been massaging a critical element out.

I am not responsible for Old Testament people who acted in the same bowdlerising way as modern antitheists.

jeremyp

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2018, 11:52:52 PM »
Can a moral relativist come out with ANY definition of Good or Bad if not then they have no business waffling on about people's interpretation of the word love

Love is a human emotion. It has nothing to do with morality.
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jeremyp

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2018, 11:57:06 PM »
Firstly it's a story. Secondly it states God's ideal. So if you are going to use the bible to prove that God is the villain you undo your argument if you are caught as you have been massaging a critical element out.


Accepting that Adam and Eve did some bad things, how does that justify God murdering many people who are not Adam and Eve and how does it justify God inciting Abraham to try to murder Isaac?

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #119 on: May 10, 2018, 04:46:57 PM »
Firstly it's a story. Secondly it states God's ideal. So if you are going to use the bible to prove that God is the villain you undo your argument if you are caught as you have been massaging a critical element out.

I am not responsible for Old Testament people who acted in the same bowdlerising way as modern antitheists.

It is you who are massaging critical elements out.
As for "Old Testament people" bowdlerising - this is quite laughable. You obviously have no knowledge whatever of how the Bible came to be put together. All the evidence points to the A&E story coming into the mix quite late* - which is probably why it it doesn't appear much in the OT (and it doesn't appear much in the NT until St Paul got worked up about it).

Yes indeed, the A&E text is a story, (or rather a myth, as I said) but any instructive story or myth has to have some contact with actual reality, historical or otherwise, if it is going to be relevant. You can argue till the cows come home about this story's particular significance, but it will always remain an interpretation which you put upon it - based in your case on the theological musings of St Paul. Bully for you.

* It appears that Ecclesiasticus in the Apocrypha was aware of it, but he seems to have used the story to back up his jaundiced attitude to women, because he appears to have been unhappily married.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 04:50:35 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2018, 09:15:38 AM »
It is you who are massaging critical elements out.
As for "Old Testament people" bowdlerising - this is quite laughable. You obviously have no knowledge whatever of how the Bible came to be put together. All the evidence points to the A&E story coming into the mix quite late* - which is probably why it it doesn't appear much in the OT (and it doesn't appear much in the NT until St Paul got worked up about it).

Yes indeed, the A&E text is a story, (or rather a myth, as I said) but any instructive story or myth has to have some contact with actual reality, historical or otherwise, if it is going to be relevant. You can argue till the cows come home about this story's particular significance, but it will always remain an interpretation which you put upon it - based in your case on the theological musings of St Paul. Bully for you.

* It appears that Ecclesiasticus in the Apocrypha was aware of it, but he seems to have used the story to back up his jaundiced attitude to women, because he appears to have been unhappily married.
I think we are waiting for your interpretation, pants.
The only other interpretations I've heard is that it is the story of how man steals intellectual ability from God.......an antitheistic fantasy or it demonstrates mans discovery of chutzpah which rather casts mankind as a spiv ....and that's nastier than any Christian view of A and E.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2018, 11:12:33 AM »
And in English?
Ok I'll type this slowly.
I want Dicky to give us alternative interpretations of the Adam and Eve story.
I have heard of two alternative interpretations:
1: That it is the story of humanity stealing intellectual ability from God. In other words an antitheist fantasy.
2: That it is the story of the discovery of what jews would call ''Chutzpah'', a cheeky audacity. In other words mankind is a kind of confidence trickster.....and only a criminal would take pride in that.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2018, 11:28:05 AM »
I don't understand your gobbledegook.

BTW Vlad, why do you find the need to change your name so often, do you suffer from some sort of insecurity?
Well, I can't help your understanding. A trip to the University of the Third Age might help....end of advert.





SteveH

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2018, 01:17:42 PM »
Can a moral relativist come out with ANY definition of Good or Bad..
Please define "moral relativist". In my experience it means "anyone who disagrees with me".
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trouble at mill
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2018, 01:24:35 PM »
Please define "moral relativist". In my experience it means "anyone who disagrees with me".
Basically.....not an absolutist.

We have had moral absolutists here who I've disagreed with.