Author Topic: 'Why We Need Religion'  (Read 7108 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2018, 03:02:59 PM »
He is suggesting that religion offers emotional reassurance in a way that science cannot. That seems a pretty unremarkable statement to me, and I fail to see how it comes under the incredulity fallacy.
Whatever fallacy it comes under, the fact remains for me that science and what man has achieved give me a solidly based emotional security which belief in a totally unevidenced idea is impossible to do.

And responding to the title of the topic, man does not need religion, superstitious belief arose, was expanded and grew into a variety of religions all of which were thought up by the humans around. People might think they need religion, but if they had started off with facts instead of superstition, the question would never have arisen in the first place.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2018, 03:06:01 PM »
Whatever fallacy it comes under, the fact remains for me that science and what man has achieved give me a solidly based emotional security which belief in a totally unevidenced idea is impossible to do.

And responding to the title of the topic, man does not need religion, superstitious belief arose, was expanded and grew into a variety of religions all of which were thought up by the humans around. People might think they need religion, but if they had started off with facts instead of superstition, the question would never have arisen in the first place.
What emotional security can you base on science? Emotion is in the world of oughts, science is neutral to that.

SusanDoris

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2018, 03:43:32 PM »
What emotional security can you base on science? Emotion is in the world of oughts, science is neutral to that.
I didn't just say science, I said science and what man has achieved.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2018, 03:48:13 PM »
I didn't just say science, I said science and what man has achieved.
  whatever man has in your opinion achieved, that's just more is, more facts. I don't see where you get to emotional security from that. To link to the discussion on Fine Detail in the Gospel, what about climate change and mass extinction?

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2018, 05:06:02 PM »
What emotional security can you base on science? Emotion is in the world of oughts, science is neutral to that.

Are things such as cognitive therapy science-based? Because many find them to give them a way of accessing emotional security without faith.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2018, 05:08:03 PM »
Are things such as cognitive therapy science-based? Because many find them to give them a way of accessing emotional security without faith.
Didn't say that you need faith. Just that facts don't get you to an ought.

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2018, 05:12:33 PM »
Didn't say that you need faith. Just that facts don't get you to an ought.

Isn’t the original premise here that religion provides emotional security in a way that nothing else can? Because that manifestly isn’t true.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2018, 05:21:23 PM »
Isn’t the original premise here that religion provides emotional security in a way that nothing else can? Because that manifestly isn’t true.
And I disagree with that premise. I think the writer offers a false dichotomy. But that doesn't mean I think that science and man's achievements offer emotional security.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:23:48 PM by Nearly Sane »

Enki

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2018, 05:41:44 PM »
  whatever man has in your opinion achieved, that's just more is, more facts. I don't see where you get to emotional security from that. To link to the discussion on Fine Detail in the Gospel, what about climate change and mass extinction?

I  suppose from my point of view I get a certain amount of emotional security(satisfaction?) from having an understanding about things, at least as far as I am able to ascertain that understanding is based upon solid ground, that is, and that would almost certainly include what passes for facts. I would even say that I would find comfort in an acceptance that certain things are simply unknown. So, what science has to say about the universe, even with its present unknowns, is to me more emotionally comforting than any amount of unevidenced conjecture. I suppose that I see science as the best way of approaching reality because it is the least interested in subjective interpretations.
 
For instance, if I was suffering from some sort of illness/disability, even if it was not able to be successfully treated, I would much prefer, emotionally, to understand the nature of the problem than to be subject to conjecture and inexpert opinion(whether from myself or others). For me, in this situation, the role of medical science would be paramount. 

I realise that others see things differently and derive emotional comfort from their own particular personal beliefs. Indeed my sister draws such comfort from her own Christian beliefs. I am not averse to this at all, as long as there is no attempt to impose such feelings upon others of course.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2018, 05:47:50 PM »
I  suppose from my point of view I get a certain amount of emotional security(satisfaction?) from having an understanding about things, at least as far as I am able to ascertain that understanding is based upon solid ground, that is, and that would almost certainly include what passes for facts. I would even say that I would find comfort in an acceptance that certain things are simply unknown. So, what science has to say about the universe, even with its present unknowns, is to me more emotionally comforting than any amount of unevidenced conjecture. I suppose that I see science as the best way of approaching reality because it is the least interested in subjective interpretations.
 
For instance, if I was suffering from some sort of illness/disability, even if it was not able to be successfully treated, I would much prefer, emotionally, to understand the nature of the problem than to be subject to conjecture and inexpert opinion(whether from myself or others). For me, in this situation, the role of medical science would be paramount. 

I realise that others see things differently and derive emotional comfort from their own particular personal beliefs. Indeed my sister draws such comfort from her own Christian beliefs. I am not averse to this at all, as long as there is no attempt to impose such feelings upon others of course.
That's a lovely thoughtful post. I don't disagree that knowing what facts are in any case are crucial but knowing the facts wills never get up into an ought. You need a choice based on desire for that. Those decisions aren't about what is. Your decisions about emotionally comforting don't make any sense scientifically.

SusanDoris

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2018, 05:53:47 PM »
  whatever man has in your opinion achieved, that's just more is, more facts. I don't see where you get to emotional security from that. To link to the discussion on Fine Detail in the Gospel, what about climate change and mass extinction?
I have not been following the discussion you mention.
Anyone who believes that their faith belief in a totally unevidenced something - however much they may also believe that there is such evidence - gives them emotional security is labouring under a delusion. It's a house of cards and sooner or later there are going to be enough people who will make it clear that the card holding the whole thing up never existed in the first place. Where will their emotional security be then?
I cannot think of anything which gives me emotional support (not that I need much of that actually!)  that does not have facts to back it up.

I would like to confront the AofC and ditto of York with that!!! Plus the Chief Rabbi and leaders of all the other major religiousb beliefs in the world.
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Enki

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2018, 06:07:37 PM »
That's a lovely thoughtful post. I don't disagree that knowing what facts are in any case are crucial but knowing the facts wills never get up into an ought. You need a choice based on desire for that. Those decisions aren't about what is. Your decisions about emotionally comforting don't make any sense scientifically.

Thanks for the compliment, NS. As regards your last point, I don't disagree at all. I am subject to emotions, which may well be explained in scientific terms, but, as you say, do not necessarily relate to personal scientific scrutiny. Perhaps it is simply part of my nature to find satisfaction in understanding, and thus evoking an emotional response in me.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2018, 06:27:53 PM »
Miami Vice recast with Dawkins and Craig - two mismatched cops, one an antitheist who hates blind watchmakers, the other an apologist who starts every interview with 'what was the first cause.' Separately, they rock, together they roll,
I guess they would get to refer to each other as ''Mofo'' (whatever that is)at regular intervals.

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2018, 07:21:55 PM »
And I disagree with that premise. I think the writer offers a false dichotomy. But that doesn't mean I think that science and man's achievements offer emotional security.

Enki’s hit the nail on the head. Emotional security comes from making peace with unknowing, and I found how to access that in CBT and other cognitive therapies, not religion.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2018, 07:25:29 PM »
Enki’s hit the nail on the head. Emotional security comes from making peace with unknowing, and I found how to access that in CBT and other cognitive therapies, not religion.
Again I think there's a false dichotomy. I don't understand how anyone makes peace with the unknown via a set of facts when that's an emotional approach.

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2018, 07:32:45 PM »
Again I think there's a false dichotomy. I don't understand how anyone makes peace with the unknown via a set of facts when that's an emotional approach.

You’re missing my point. Yes, making peace with the unknown is emotional but I’m talking about how to get there. I found it through a method that comes from evidence-based medicine - cognitive therapy - rather than religion. Religion had a very different effect on me and it fuelled my anxiety.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2018, 07:40:25 PM »
You’re missing my point. Yes, making peace with the unknown is emotional but I’m talking about how to get there. I found it through a method that comes from evidence-based medicine - cognitive therapy - rather than religion. Religion had a very different effect on me and it fuelled my anxiety.
And you are missing mine. I didn't say it has to be religion. That's the point about it being a false dichotomy. I am not sure that CBT qualifies as science but if it does I don't understand how anyone here from a set of is statements to something that covers oughrs.

floo

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2018, 12:08:56 PM »
I had a few sessions of CBT a year or two ago for my health anxiety, but it made it worse not better.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2018, 12:17:49 PM »
You’re missing my point. Yes, making peace with the unknown is emotional but I’m talking about how to get there. I found it through a method that comes from evidence-based medicine - cognitive therapy - rather than religion. Religion had a very different effect on me and it fuelled my anxiety.
What brought you back to an online forum on religion?

Rhiannon

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2018, 02:05:08 PM »
What brought you back to an online forum on religion?

Your warm and easy company.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2018, 02:19:34 PM »
Your warm and easy company.
That's a pretty good reason.

Gonnagle

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2018, 02:23:06 PM »
Dear Sane,

A very interesting article!

Quote
Religiosity is in human nature.

True, we are born crying out to a higher power, I read a article where a scientist made the claim that at the point of birth, it is more frightening than your first parachute jump.

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Aruntraveller

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2018, 02:41:43 PM »
Quote
I read a article where a scientist made the claim that at the point of birth, it is more frightening than your first parachute jump.

I wonder how the scientist came up with this?

I've no memory of the point of birth, and I've never done a parachute jump so I'm finding the comparison hard to take seriously.

And surely "we are born crying out to a higher power" is mere assertion.

I'm not arguing about whether or not "religiosity is in human nature" just the specifics of these points.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2018, 02:46:12 PM »
I don't actually remember popping into this world,  which is probably a good thing, but I do remember being in a white canvas sided cot in the maternity hospital with the nurse looking down at me. I didn't feel scared.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: 'Why We Need Religion'
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2018, 02:49:28 PM »
I don't actually remember popping into this world,  which is probably a good thing, but I do remember being in a white canvas sided cot in the maternity hospital with the nurse looking down at me. I didn't feel scared.
Strange occurences...Prodigious powers....
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