voters for labour without Corbyn?

[ProfessorDavey]

Since you are flip flopping between a supposed electoral ''science''(Disserving science, Prof?) and opinion based either on a lack of political self esteem or rampant Toby Young-ism, I suppose I shall have to leave you in your reverie that these Elections predict the return of Theresa May into majority Government or Boris majority Government or any Tory government.

What I am predicting is that Corbyn will not win a general election, as I've seen so evidence to suggest he will. Indeed prior to the 2017 election being called I predicted that he wouldn't win the next general election (although we didn't know it would be in 2017) and right on cue he failed to win it.

The problem for Corbyn is that he is a marmite politician - so for each person he attracts there are just as many who are attracted to vote an any manner to prevent him getting into number 10. You don't win elections that way - you do so by enthusing your supporters and not frightening those who aren't natural supporters. Problem for Corbyn is that he terrified his non natural supporters, and he will never have enough enthused natural supporters to overcome this problem.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So Labour lost 1-0 rather than 5-0 - so what - they still lost. The local election results indicated they would lose the election and as predicted they duly lost it.

I know not what the local elections themselves as inanimate predicted the score to be but the analysis of them predicted them losing 5-0 up to the year 2030.

Since you are now doing an Argumentum ad Footy
This might be of interest to you

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-local-elections-david-blunkett-labour-a8338961.html

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What I am predicting is that Corbyn will not win a general election

And I am predicting that May will not win another election on account that she would have to have the powers of political resurrection of.......well, Jeremy Corbyn.

[jeremyp]

I know not what the local elections themselves as inanimate predicted the score to be but the analysis of them predicted them losing 5-0 up to the year 2030.

Since you are now doing an Argumentum ad Footy
This might be of interest to you

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-local-elections-david-blunkett-labour-a8338961.html

I think your article demonstrates part of Corbyn's problem. Many of his supporters have the persecution complex so bad that instead of trying to engage with potential allies, they choose to sneer at them and denigrate them. Your article does a hatchet job on an experienced Labour politician instead of stopping to ask why Blunkett allied himself with Blair's government. Instead of learning from the people that won elections for Labour, Corbyn's supporters insult them.

They also demonise the people that don't vote for them. People who vote Tory are called inhuman and selfish. That's not a good way to persuade them to vote Labour instead. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think your article demonstrates part of Corbyn's problem. Many of his supporters have the persecution complex so bad that instead of trying to engage with potential allies, they choose to sneer at them and denigrate them. Your article does a hatchet job on an experienced Labour politician instead of stopping to ask why Blunkett allied himself with Blair's government. Instead of learning from the people that won elections for Labour, Corbyn's supporters insult them.

They also demonise the people that don't vote for them. People who vote Tory are called inhuman and selfish. That's not a good way to persuade them to vote Labour instead.

Labour demonises people far, far, far less than the Conservatives.
I don't know why you're even bothering to even suggest that the sensible money is on aligning with blairites and Milibandites since they went AWOL two years ago.

Don't get me wrong, the Tony party worked magic until 2007 but The age of miracles has passed and there is no one left who isn't either tapping into earlier Labour because that better reflects the lot of many these days or has form in putting the blame on the last labour government for austerity

[jeremyp]

Labour demonises people far, far, far less than the Conservatives.

Nope. Not when it comes to people who might potentially vote for them.

I don't know why you're even bothering to even suggest that the sensible money is on aligning with blairites and Milibandites since they went AWOL two years ago.

You can't read, I didn't say "aligning".

Anyway, the Corbynites should be getting them - these people who have won elections for Labour - to align themselves with modern Labour, not the other way around.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nope. Not when it comes to people who might potentially vote for them.You can't read, I didn't say "aligning".

Anyway, the Corbynites should be getting them - these people who have won elections for Labour - to align themselves with modern Labour, not the other way around.

The magic has worn off Jeremy. There is no evidence that these people can win elections for labour any more and probably two elections which demonstrate they can't.

How can you align or get to align with people who en masse decided to abandon frontline opposition politics?

[jeremyp]

The magic has worn off Jeremy. There is no evidence that these people can win elections for labour any more and probably two elections which demonstrate they can't.

The 2010 election was lost for various reasons like the financial crash and Gordon Brown having the personality of a dead haddock. In fact, given the way the polls looked before the election and the aforementioned issues, you can argue that Labour did quite well to prevent the Tories from having an absolute majority.

Actually it is interesting: In 2010, Labour coming off of forming a deeply unpopular government prevents the Tories from getting a majority and they are painted as a bunch of losers; in 2017, Labour coming off of opposing a deeply unpopular government prevents the Tories from getting a majority and they are painted as heroes. I think you need to take an objective look at how well Mr Corbyn has really done.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The 2010 election was lost for various reasons like the financial crash and Gordon Brown having the personality of a dead haddock. In fact, given the way the polls looked before the election and the aforementioned issues, you can argue that Labour did quite well to prevent the Tories from having an absolute majority.

Actually it is interesting: In 2010, Labour coming off of forming a deeply unpopular government prevents the Tories from getting a majority and they are painted as a bunch of losers; in 2017, Labour coming off of opposing a deeply unpopular government prevents the Tories from getting a majority and they are painted as heroes. I think you need to take an objective look at how well Mr Corbyn has really done.

I don't think it's a case of them not doing well just of leaving the field of battle in 2015/2016 only to return to spike the guns every now and then.

When they left en masse in 2016 they thought they had politically destroyed Corbyn but they must have known they would inflict huge collateral damage on the brand. But even that needn't have been it. As the defeated side they could have worked for party success but chose instead to remain a bunch of hillraiders.
As I said the Tony party was once a great thing, Miliband didn't have the pud. The remnants tried some weird political suicide pact in 2016 and Corbyn not only saves the party existentially but frustrates the threat of another Toriana*

* Unfettered and inexorable Toryism with inevitable majorities stretching several terms into the future.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't think it's a case of them not doing well just of leaving the field of battle in 2015/2016 only to return to spike the guns every now and then.

Which, of course is a perfect description of Corbyn and his cronies for the whole period from 1983 (when Kinnock became Labour leader) until Corbyn's election in 2015.

And actually rather than 'leaving the field of battle' many of those people are actively engaged - running London and Manchester as examples - jobs that these days have far more influence than being a back bencher or minor member of the shadow team. Or being de facto leader (or deputy leader) of the opposition in parliament on the biggest issue facing this country as opposed to Corbyn who simply fudges and vacillates on Brexit.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which, of course is a perfect description of Corbyn and his cronies for the whole period from 1983 (when Kinnock became Labour leader) until Corbyn's election in 2015.

And actually rather than 'leaving the field of battle' many of those people are actively engaged - running London and Manchester as examples - jobs that these days have far more influence than being a back bencher or minor member of the shadow team. Or being de facto leader (or deputy leader) of the opposition in parliament on the biggest issue facing this country as opposed to Corbyn who simply fudges and vacillates on Brexit.

Corbyn was never in the position to do what was attempted in 2016 which must go down as the worst case of frustrated sense of entitlement in U.K. Politics.

Fat lot of good being in Manchester,Sheffield and London. That arguably is the Boris Johnson recipe for getting power on the National stage and that's really working well for the Tories.

1983............I was still a bit of a Tory then. Did Corbyn stymie Kinnock? After all by 1992 Kinnock was sufficiently confident to declare:

We're awwright..........we're aawwwwwwwrighttttttttt...........

We're awwwwwwwwwwwwrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiggghhhtttttttttttt

[Walt Zingmatilder]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/10/andy-burnham-says-labour-hounded-debbie-abrahams-out

Oh dear is Burnham useful idioting for a Conservative government from his lair.....or should that be Blair?.....in Manchester?

A fine display of Hill-raiding?

[SteveH]

Cameron resembles Churchill the nodding dog from the adverts, but not Sir Winston by any stretch of the imagination.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Cameron resembles Churchill the nodding dog from the adverts,

OHHHHH YUS.

[jakswan]

I'd vote for Labour if Corbyn wasn't around.

The last GE it was like May tried to lose, she was talking about bringing back fox hunting ffs.

Labour still lost, doubt the Tories will be quite as pathetic next time.

[jeremyp]

doubt the Tories will be quite as pathetic next time.

What? They'l make sure they lose hard?

I hadn't considered your idea that May was trying to throw the election, but now you've brought it up, it seems really quite plausible. It's like that game "Pass the Bomb", the bomb being the utterly fouled up Brexit negotiations.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

Good thread.

As a big Corbyn fan this thread has me thinking and I have to agree that it because of Corbyn that the Labour party is not fairing better, Mr Corbyn is a enigma, voters are very wary of the man, he has been branded Marxist, Communist, anti Semite, his die hard supporters are all labelled lefties, and the press have done a sterling job in highlighting all of the above.

But ( always a but ) no one has highlighted the mans basic qualities, his honesty, his compassion and his fight against the one per cent holding all the wealth, Mr Corbyns time will come and I hope it is very soon, it just makes me wonder how many more tory disasters it will take before the voting public wake up.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

I am highly unlikely to vote for a party that supports the renewal of Trident. I couldn't lead a party that supported the policy, and support it, and that I didn't personally support it would make me feel like a liar and not a leader. Cornyn does 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad,

Good thread.

As a big Corbyn fan this thread has me thinking and I have to agree that it because of Corbyn that the Labour party is not fairing better, Mr Corbyn is a enigma, voters are very wary of the man, he has been branded Marxist, Communist, anti Semite, his die hard supporters are all labelled lefties, and the press have done a sterling job in highlighting all of the above.

But ( always a but ) no one has highlighted the mans basic qualities, his honesty, his compassion and his fight against the one per cent holding all the wealth, Mr Corbyns time will come and I hope it is very soon, it just makes me wonder how many more tory disasters it will take before the voting public wake up.

Gonnagle.

Or his achievements which include saving the Labour party twice and confounding the press... but at the end of the day the GBP need to vote the tories out and make a thorough job of getting rid of the toxic legacy.

Scotland has a big part to play by getting rid of the tories on a generational basis either by switching to Labour or SNP.

As for Miliband Primus reappearence........too little too late.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd vote for Labour if Corbyn wasn't around.

And why should we believe that?

[Nearly Sane]

And why should we believe that?

Why shouldn't you believe it?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why shouldn't you believe it?

There is and can be no evidence of it. Now that should be good enough for you since it is the basis of your atheism I believe.
I suppose technically Corbyn was not around then and yet People did not vote Labour even as the polls predicted and it is always touch and Go whether people will vote for a Labour that you can almost certainly squeeze a fag paper in the space between them and the Tories.

[Aruntraveller]

And I was following this line of argument. And now I'm not. 

[Nearly Sane]

There is and can be no evidence of it. Now that should be good enough for you since it is the basis of your atheism I believe.
I suppose technically Corbyn was not around then and yet People did not vote Labour even as the polls predicted and it is always touch and Go whether people will vote for a Labour that you can almost certainly squeeze a fag paper in the space between them and the Tories.

What has my atheism got to do with how jakswan might vote?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What has my atheism got to do with how jakswan might vote?

It's analogous to why I don't believe that Jak would vote labour.