Author Topic: Historically Christian - discuss  (Read 11514 times)

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2018, 12:49:44 PM »
No you didn't say that Christianity was perfect Steven, or rather those who adhered to it, you just said it was 'there', which it was in this country.

No religion or anyone who practices a religion are perfect, that would be impossible.

Neither would anything that's, so obviously, man made be perfect either.

Regards ippy

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 01:47:33 PM »
I think that it may be appropriate to ask at this point "what is the purpose of religion?"
I think that is much harder to answer nowadays than ever before. When I was young, I don’t think the question would have arisen amongst the general public. It might have come up insuch things as Philosophy at University, but I doubt that there would have  been many atheist voices speaking up strongly! It seems reasonable to me to suppose that, when the branch of an ancient ape ancestor evolved, via random mutations and natural selection, to be able to communicate thoughts in language,    then that species, aware that they could think, would presume that other aspects of nature could also think and act. Perhaps the first purpose of thoughts and actions which led to religions was to appease the apparent anger of, for example,  mountains, rivers and seas. It would have then been an easy, probably inevitable, step for one or some with leadership qualities (and these could be for good or bad, since there had been leaders of mammal groups for millions of years already – a vital survival trait)to take that role in those early human groups.
Quote
My own view is that it is a system of social control - different from systems which involve physical methods such as violence or the threat of physical restraint - which uses the suggestion of revealed knowledge to influence behaviour.
This, with all its inherent problems, probably was also a strong survival trait even into comparatively recent centuries!
Quote
A shaman, or priest, or imam or witchdoctor ... or whatever ... has "knowledge" not possessed by ordinary people and this is used as a source of power.
Yes, and in the past they did not have people – well, there must have been some, but nowhere near enough – who would challenge by saying that their claims of such powers were based on wishful thinking!
Quote
Allied to this is a general lack of understanding of the physical world (lightning is a weapon used by the gods or whatever) and a promise of continued existence following death.
Agreed.
Quote
Brutality and violence is accepted because it is considered necessary for the "truth" to be accepted by everyone and the violent suppression and subjugation of alternative ideologies is essential to ensure that "truth" is not corrupted. It has been a hallmark of Christianity over many centuries and is seen at present in factions of Islam.
This is, unfortunately, all too true. However, there certainly seems to be a far, far greater awareness this century that this is no longer acceptable. With all its spread of rubbish noted, the internet is making positive messages of talk not war,
heard more clearly. The claims made by religious leaders of all kinds are no longer accepted without question.
Quote
Religion is the practice of telling minimally plausible fairy tales to a frightened community in order to ensure compliance.
Thank goodness this is not working anywhere near as well as it did in the past!
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2018, 06:12:56 PM »
I’ve been thinking about this thread and why Susan read so much more into Steve’s words than are actually there. Then it occurred to me that ‘historic’ is often used to mean ‘a great achievement’ - ‘historic victory’ for example. I wonder if Susan has attached that kind of meaning to what was simply a statement of fact, if open to question somewhat on the paganism front.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2018, 06:27:36 PM »
I’ve been thinking about this thread and why Susan read so much more into Steve’s words than are actually there. Then it occurred to me that ‘historic’ is often used to mean ‘a great achievement’ - ‘historic victory’ for example. I wonder if Susan has attached that kind of meaning to what was simply a statement of fact, if open to question somewhat on the paganism front.
No, I didn't read anything into SteveH's comment - I just thought the subject might be worth some discussion.  I like discussion for discussion's sake and do not mind if there is no *winner or loser*; but if interesting opinions have been aired and discussed, then that is satisfying I think.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2018, 08:07:21 PM »

What difference would that make to how they perceive SD's posts read to them?


Because a machine does not have the ability to express things like emotion etc. It gives the words not thei subtlty of vocal expression.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2018, 08:08:47 PM »

Yes, I do know that. What of it?


See #29
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2018, 08:10:45 PM »

That sums up my experience of it.


Of organised religion - mine too.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2018, 08:33:06 PM »
Perhaps a better term would be 'Christian Heritage', and that the UK has such a heritage is undeniable. However, as Rhi noted earlier, Christianity isn't a steady state and has changed markedly since early Anglo Saxon times, as has its social and political role, where at one time theology, politics and power were closely entwined to the extent that Christianity had substantial authority that went beyond mere influence.

Although there are some residual hangovers of this today: mainly in the 'established' status of the C of E and the peculiar obsession some sections of the media have in telling us all what various clerics think and say, along with ensuring a select few of them get a free pass into political governance via the H of L. Times have changed though, and the authority and influence of organised Christianity has waned to the point that life can be lived without any reference to Christianity (aside of course from annoyance at the unearned privilege of the C of E in the UK and the assumption that what various clerics think is of any relevance or interest to anyone who is not a member of their various sects).

I was listening to an interview with a senior cleric (can't remember the details since it was a while ago) who pointed out that the biggest risk to Christian affiliation was what he called the 'unchurched': those who have never had any active involvement in organised religion so that it plays no significant part in their family and social lives - like me, and my family.     

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2018, 08:46:39 PM »
Because a machine does not have the ability to express things like emotion etc. It gives the words not thei subtlty of vocal expression.
Which is entirely irrelevant to their reading of SD's posts.

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2018, 01:47:59 AM »

 Which is entirely irrelevant to their reading of SD's posts.


I do not consider it so or I would not have said it!

Let it go tho' as it is not directly relevant to the thread.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2018, 08:21:44 AM »
Times have changed though, and the authority and influence of organised Christianity has waned to the point that life can be lived without any reference to Christianity (aside of course from annoyance at the unearned privilege of the C of E in the UK and the assumption that what various clerics think is of any relevance or interest to anyone who is not a member of their various sects).
I think you are right there is a definite change, but it is the better kind of change – the sort that gradually becomes the background ethos and is not forced upon people, particularly people for whom the background is just that, a background, against which everyday life is lived without direct reference to it.
Quote
I was listening to an interview with a senior cleric (can't remember the details since it was a while ago) who pointed out that the biggest risk to Christian affiliation was what he called the 'unchurched': those who have never had any active involvement in organised religion so that it plays no significant part in their family and social lives - like me, and my family.
If only such clerics etc would face the facts that all human achievements have been achieved by, well, humans! It is no longer rational, and cannot be objective, to state that some kind of god must be behind it all.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 08:24:59 AM by SusanDoris »
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2018, 02:09:13 PM »
SteveH in the  Faith Sharing area, in the topic  on why people decide which religion is best for them said this:
Bearing in mind the various burnings, hangings, etc etc carried out in the name of Christianity during the last nearly 2,000 years, I don't think people should be proud of their historical /Christianity, or hold it up as any kind of example for good!! That was the main reason why I followed the post with, 'Explain.' Perhaps SteveH might like to have a go at offering some general, if not particular, words or two on this?
Christianity is precisely what predicts human depravity. I think christianity can be used as an excuse.
Atheism has resulted in Stalinism and Pol Pot with their reductionist view of humanity. When atheists kill therefore they are almost certainly of the view that they are disposing of biological material which has no existence beyond political utility. The advent of illusion of selfists can only lead to further dehumanisation.

That is not to say that Atheists do not believe they are a more morally advanced sub species and many are convicted of their own special righteousness. THE KRAUSS AND SILBERMAN AFFAIRS however shows us that the Atheist project and hope for a new humanity based on the elimination of religion is just as doomed as any other.

American atheists have realised this but many British atheists discard the negative experiences of American atheism preferring to be animated by the Zeal and the rage.

In short Susan I have to put not only what us Christians have wrought in 2000 although I and any Christian I know wrought none of it against what you atheists wrought in 20 years but how each view humanity.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2018, 02:14:23 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Quote
Atheism has resulted in Stalinism and Pol Pot...

Wrong
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2018, 02:27:40 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Wrong

Stalin and Pol POT were atheists though. SO much for atheism making 'better people'.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2018, 02:33:28 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Quote
Stalin and Pol POT were atheists though.

Yes, but the lie you attempted was "Atheism has resulted in Stalinism and Pol Pot...". There's no logical path from atheism to despotism, but there can be from religion to despotism when the religion itself mandates despotic behaviour (tribal genocide for example).   

Quote
SO much for atheism making 'better people'.

Something else you've just made up.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2018, 02:39:43 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Yes, but the lie you attempted was "Atheism has resulted in Stalinism and Pol Pot...". There's no logical path from atheism to despotism,
Atheism means there is no God
No God means no judgment
no judgment means I can do what I like on a scale that I like.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2018, 02:43:04 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Yes, but the lie you attempted was "Atheism has resulted in Stalinism and Pol Pot...". There's no logical path from atheism to despotism, but there can be from religion to despotism when the religion itself mandates despotic behaviour (tribal genocide for example).   

Tribal genocide can happen without religion.
Despotism can arise from atheists and mandated by atheistic causes.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2018, 02:44:16 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Quote
Atheism means there is no God

Wrong.

Quote
No God means no judgment.

Wrong.

Quote
no judgment means I can do what I like on a scale that I like.

Wrong.

I could tell you why you're wrong on every count as I have done so often in the past but i see little point as you'll only ignore or lie about the explanations when they're given to you.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2018, 02:46:40 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Quote
Tribal genocide can happen without religion.

No-one says otherwsie.

Quote
Despotism can arise from atheists...

Guilt by association. They can also be philatelists and Chihuahua breeders. So?

Quote
...and mandated by atheistic causes.

Wrong.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2018, 02:51:44 PM »


Guilt by association. They can also be philatelists and Chihuahua breeders. So?


Philately and Chihuahau breeding are not starting points for a world view Hillside. Whereas Atheism is. Since if it is twuly adopted, then there is no barrier to dominate others.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2018, 02:57:04 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Quote
Philately and Chihuahau breeding are not starting points for a world view Hillside. Whereas Atheism is.

Wrong. Atheism is no more a “world view” than a-leprechaunism is a “world view” – and neither mandate anything in any case.

Quote
Since if it is twuly adopted, then there is no barrier to dominate others.

Wrong.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2018, 03:03:23 PM »
Vlad the Guilt by Associationist,

Wrong. Atheism is no more a “world view” than a-leprechaunism is a “world view” – and neither mandate anything in any case.

Wrong.
I said it is a starting point for world view Hillside.

There is no God (Probably only became fashionable since There is no God wasn't allowed on the atheist bus.)
Therefore how does the world work.

or

There is no God
Therefore there is no judgment therefore I should seek to be able to behave how I like.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2018, 03:08:27 PM »
What's a world view?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Historically Christian - discuss
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2018, 03:18:57 PM »
Why should one accept such an idea?   I've never understood the sense of 'worldview'.   My own mind is a rag-bag of stuff, not coherent at all.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!