Author Topic: Hawking and fine tuning  (Read 2770 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Hawking and fine tuning
« on: May 07, 2018, 03:37:19 PM »
Has Hawking weakened the power of the multiverse to explain away fine tuning?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/07/stephen-hawking-god-multiverse-cosmology

Oh dear.....Oh dear oh dear.

jeremyp

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2018, 03:49:39 PM »
Is a finely tuned universe more or less probable than the finely tuned god in which you believe?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2018, 03:57:44 PM »
Is a finely tuned universe more or less probable than the finely tuned god in which you believe?
Don't know......do you? (show working out)

jeremyp

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2018, 03:59:29 PM »
Don't know

Perhaps you should stop pretending that it is an argument in favour of your god then.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 04:11:08 PM by jeremyp »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2018, 04:05:11 PM »
Perhaps you should stop pretending that it is an argument in favour of your gods then.
And yet you were recently arguing that ''Don't know'' was a respectable position to take.

What this means is that the ease and effectiveness of just invoking the multiverse to neutralise fine tuning has gone down considerably. Why would that not effect the effectiveness of God as fine tuning the universe as an argument?

Why these figures and no others?

jeremyp

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2018, 04:17:21 PM »
And yet you were recently arguing that ''Don't know'' was a respectable position to take.
It is a respectable position, but despite what you said earlier on this thread, it's not a position that you take.

Quote
What this means is that the ease and effectiveness of just invoking the multiverse to neutralise fine tuning has gone down considerably. Why would that not effect the effectiveness of God as fine tuning the universe as an argument?
Why is there a need to "neutralise" fine tuning?

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2018, 04:33:20 PM »
It is a respectable position, but despite what you said earlier on this thread, it's not a position that you take.
Why is there a need to "neutralise" fine tuning?
You better ask somebody or those who refer to this as the Fine tuning problem.

It is of course no problem in science, in which a problem refers to something unexplained yet explicable.

Pugliaci questioned though Sean Carroll's use which seemed tied up with his antitheism.

jeremyp

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2018, 04:36:45 PM »
You better ask somebody or those who refer to this as the Fine tuning problem.
I am asking somebody: you.

Why do you think the fine tuning problem is referred to as a problem? Clue: it's not because we have to believe in a god if we can't solve it.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2018, 06:11:21 PM »
I am asking somebody: you.

Why do you think the fine tuning problem is referred to as a problem? Clue: it's not because we have to believe in a god if we can't solve it.
Sorry, I don't understand your banter.

jeremyp

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 05:45:55 PM »
Sorry, I don't understand your banter.
It's a simple question. I await your answer.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2018, 05:56:26 PM »
It's a simple question. I await your answer.
No Jeremy, I'm afraid you lost me...That's what happens if you put a smart arse comment in here or a smart arse comment in there.

E.g. You accused me of calling Fine tuning the fine tuning problem. I didn't but apparently Sean Carroll has.

Why would fine tuning be a problem to me.

To an antitheist who could snort Beavis like when Fine tuning could be wafted away with an appeal to universebs with different constants. The Hawking idea that that isn't so and they all have the same wraps it up for such Nerdy behaviour.

jeremyp

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 11:43:01 PM »
No Jeremy, I'm afraid you lost me...That's what happens if you put a smart arse comment in here or a smart arse comment in there.
At which part of "Why do you think the fine tuning problem is referred to as a problem?" did you get lost?
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SteveH

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 01:24:24 PM »
The fine tuning argument for God is circular. It assumes that life, and more specifically intelligent life, is special. If so, it can only be because it is special to a supernatural entity that cares about it, i.e. God. It thus assumes that which it is trying to prove. If there is no God, then life and intelligence are not special. So what if the universe had to be finely tuned to produce it: some set of conditions had to obtain, and they just happened to be the ones that were congenial to the emergence of life and intelligence. This is one version of the "so what?" counter-argument to all arguments for God. The more interesting question is why any universe exists: why is there something rather than nothing?
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BeRational

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2018, 02:13:38 PM »
The fine tuning argument for God is circular. It assumes that life, and more specifically intelligent life, is special. If so, it can only be because it is special to a supernatural entity that cares about it, i.e. God. It thus assumes that which it is trying to prove. If there is no God, then life and intelligence are not special. So what if the universe had to be finely tuned to produce it: some set of conditions had to obtain, and they just happened to be the ones that were congenial to the emergence of life and intelligence. This is one version of the "so what?" counter-argument to all arguments for God. The more interesting question is why any universe exists: why is there something rather than nothing?

Perhaps it's not possible for there to be nothing?

We don't know.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2018, 02:26:39 PM »
Perhaps it's not possible for there to be nothing?

We don't know.
How does your statement then, exclude God?..... Since you are saying it might be that there always has to be something.

wigginhall

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2018, 03:10:44 PM »
The fine tuning argument for God is circular. It assumes that life, and more specifically intelligent life, is special. If so, it can only be because it is special to a supernatural entity that cares about it, i.e. God. It thus assumes that which it is trying to prove. If there is no God, then life and intelligence are not special. So what if the universe had to be finely tuned to produce it: some set of conditions had to obtain, and they just happened to be the ones that were congenial to the emergence of life and intelligence. This is one version of the "so what?" counter-argument to all arguments for God. The more interesting question is why any universe exists: why is there something rather than nothing?

There are quite a lot of responses to that.   The most basic is that nothing cannot exist, as then it would be something.  This comes up in relation to death, as some people say, 'maybe there's oblivion'.   Well, that can't be, I suppose it might be something rather empty and barren.  But that's not nothing.

There are also some interesting ideas in physics and maths that nothing would actually be highly unstable, and would rapidly turn into something.  However, the first nothing is perhaps not what we mean normally by nothing.

And then there are all the descriptions of unstable vacuums, which are rather similar.   I think quantum mechanics has revolutionized this, with its talk of bubbles of space and time forming spontaneously.

And as BeRational says,  we also don't really know.

(One of the other interesting spin-offs is that there is no stability in nature.   Well, things like the sun appear stable, but not in the long term.   This relates to the old argument from motion - how does motion begin?   Well, in an unstable universe, everything is in motion, and rest is unusual, or merely apparent.)   
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 03:13:53 PM by wigginhall »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2018, 03:29:32 PM »
wigginhall

Just wanted to say - I have much enjoyed reading all your posts recently.
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BeRational

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2018, 03:30:16 PM »
How does your statement then, exclude God?..... Since you are saying it might be that there always has to be something.

I do not exclude god. When have I ever given you that idea?
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wigginhall

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2018, 03:34:48 PM »
wigginhall

Just wanted to say - I have much enjoyed reading all your posts recently.

Ta, old girl.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Hawking and fine tuning
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2018, 04:48:17 PM »
wigginhall

Just wanted to say - I have much enjoyed reading all your posts recently.
Your posts tend to praise the cretinous idea. Here it is the statement that nothing is unstable.
That makes it a something.
Only a distorted courtiers reply would have it otherwise.