Author Topic: The Upper House  (Read 7474 times)

ippy

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2018, 05:57:07 PM »
Blimey, so much hate. Take a chill pill.

Sorry j p, but I'm a republican it's more about the position, the people involved didn't have a say, some of them are wasters not Betty, by luck alone, there has to be a better way, something based on merit.

Solving constitutional problems isn't really my forte, I know and understand the history of royalty but I want to see this one/lot go, surly it makes more sense to expect merit before hereditary, there has to be a better way than the one we have?

Regards ippy

P S I meant to say some of the annoyance I've conveyed is because I see the present Royal system as an insult to the intelligence.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:02:14 PM by ippy »

SteveH

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2018, 05:57:26 PM »
Ohdearohdearohdearohdear....Just step back and think a minute!!! It doesn't matter what Charles does, how eccentric he might or might not be, or how uninteresting; he will do the job he has to do, whether happily, or grudgingly, or somewhere in between. His wife will support him and things will chug along nicely  until he dies and William moves into the role.
When have you had to bow or scrape or back away? The Queen is a little old lady who is remarkable for her age, bearing in mind that she stands, walks and sits  with poise and stamina; who does not look down her nose at anyone she meets - on the contrary, people afterward say how lovely she was and I bet people feel somewhat protective towards her.

In conclusion, name someone who could fill that role better than the Queen, and of course better than Charles, and then William.
What role? What does she do that's remotely necessary?
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Gordon

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2018, 06:16:11 PM »
In conclusion, name someone who could fill that role better than the Queen, and of course better than Charles, and then William.

Why not just bin the role as being past its sell-by date?


Gordon

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2018, 06:23:01 PM »
Gordon

It occurs to me that what you believe to be necessary and say about royalty and government amounts to personal incredulity!! :D

Surey you must concede that a better system needs to be available and in detail before those who want to drag the whole system down are allowed to proceed?

Nothing incredulous about it, Susan.

It is no more that disposable flummery: do we really need a monarch to sign forms, prop up the special status of the C of E, wave nicely from gilded carriages (or limousines) or cut ribbons/smash champagne bottles on boats/unveil plaques when required to do so?

I say get rid!

Harrowby Hall

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2018, 06:39:53 PM »
Back to a second chamber.

First of all, I think that a second chamber which revises and advises is essential. The Commons, partly due to the FPTP system and partly due to an obsession with legislative procedures that are 200 years old, does not necessarily perform in the best interests of the Nation but too often in the best interests of the Party. There have been occasional suggestions that the upper house should be elected but these have been countered by arguments like "an elected second chamber will challenge the authority the Commons" and so forth.

Due to the nature of its occupants entry to the place, and the fact that once members are in they are in for life, the HoL has about 800 members and is possibly one of the largest legislative bodies in the world. I suggest that this is slimmed down (to perhaps 300 or so) who are not elected from constituencies but from regions on a proportional representational basis for a period of six years. If one third stand down every two years then it will be more representative of the nation than the Commons and have its own version of legitimacy.

As for the monarchy ... why should someone be held in special awe just because he or she is the product of a spermatozoon which emerged from one particular scrotum (or ovum from one particular ovary) rather than another? I'm sure that the queen is doing a fine job - but then she has no choice, and when all is said and done she is only the window dressing.

Using the Trump argument as a pretend trump card is silly. We don't have an executive monarchy ... why should we have an executive presidency?
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SteveH

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2018, 06:45:03 PM »

Using the Trump argument as a pretend trump card is silly. We don't have an executive monarchy ... why should we have an executive presidency?
Quite. These smart-arses who regularly say that the best argument against a republic is the two words "President Blair" (or Thatcher, depending on political persuasion) ignore the fact that the prime minister is already the person with the real power, so it wouldn't really make a difference - and in any case, it'd be easy to build in checks and balances, to prevent the head of state having things too much their own way (one thing the yanks have got right).
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SusanDoris

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2018, 06:52:56 PM »
well, all you miserable killjoys, find yourselves an island or somewhere where you can have colourless, dull, terribly clever politicians and leaders who will not give you any incentive to have fun or see what people have been doing to brighten up your lives, while we continue to enjoy colour ,spectacle, fun and interest. You can feel suitably self-righteous and justified in draggin down tradition and history, having put in their place self-seeking,  ... ... I give up!!!!

Okay, I shan't be here, but don't you dare take away that aspect of life for my granddaughters and their future families!
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SteveH

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2018, 06:56:51 PM »
Interesting that a number of ardent atheists, who sneer at any mention of God or church, are keen supporters of an institution at least as illogical and anachronistic.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2018, 06:57:12 PM »

Waite till that big eared, talking to his plants, prat gets placed in that position, we got Betty by luck alone, choice didn't come into it.


And what are you called behind your back? Bow legs?

I can produce no case in favour of Charles (or anyone else for that matter) being Prince of Wales, but I do recognise that a reasonably intelligent, potentially useful human being has not only been held effectively under house arrest for the last sixty years or so but also in conditions where his almost every move has been made in the glare of total publicity. People (which could be read as journalists after an easy story) have highlighted his every idiosyncrasy and distorted it to fit whichever agenda they had.

Under similar circumstances do you think that you would fare any better?

Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Aruntraveller

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2018, 06:59:07 PM »
well, all you miserable killjoys, find yourselves an island or somewhere where you can have colourless, dull, terribly clever politicians and leaders who will not give you any incentive to have fun or see what people have been doing to brighten up your lives, while we continue to enjoy colour ,spectacle, fun and interest. You can feel suitably self-righteous and justified in draggin down tradition and history, having put in their place self-seeking,  ... ... I give up!!!!

Okay, I shan't be here, but don't you dare take away that aspect of life for my granddaughters and their future families!

Does the Queen give you incentive to have fun etc?

How does that work then?

Does she pop round to your place and drag you off to the park to play on the swings with the offer of a bag of boiled sweets if you agree.

And remember children you should never take sweets offered by strangers.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2018, 07:00:01 PM »
Interesting that a number of ardent atheists, who sneer at any mention of God or church, are keen supporters of an institution at least as illogical and anachronistic.

Yes that had struck me too. Nowt so queer as folk.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

jeremyp

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2018, 07:02:10 PM »
Sorry j p, but I'm a republican it's more about the position
But I don't see a reasoned case from you for doing away with the monarchy.

Quote
the people involved didn't have a say, some of them are wasters not Betty, by luck alone, there has to be a better way, something based on merit.
The job doesn't require any merit. The head of state pretty much has to appoint the person who can put together a government and has no choice about signing the laws. What would be gained by having a state sponsored popularity contest to appoint the HoS?

Quote
Solving constitutional problems isn't really my forte, I know and understand the history of royalty but I want to see this one/lot go, surly it makes more sense to expect merit before hereditary, there has to be a better way than the one we have?
It wouldn't be merit though, it would be by popular vote.

Quote
I meant to say some of the annoyance I've conveyed is because I see the present Royal system as an insult to the intelligence.
I see it as a tribute to British political intelligence. Over the last thousand years, all of the power ofd the monarchy has been transferred to a more or less democratically elected parliament with only three major civil wars (in England, if not Scotland).
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ippy

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2018, 09:40:49 PM »
But I don't see a reasoned case from you for doing away with the monarchy.
The job doesn't require any merit. The head of state pretty much has to appoint the person who can put together a government and has no choice about signing the laws. What would be gained by having a state sponsored popularity contest to appoint the HoS?
It wouldn't be merit though, it would be by popular vote.
I see it as a tribute to British political intelligence. Over the last thousand years, all of the power ofd the monarchy has been transferred to a more or less democratically elected parliament with only three major civil wars (in England, if not Scotland).

Plainly we don't agree on any of the points you've made and are unlikely to do so.

Regards ippy

Anchorman

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2018, 09:48:14 PM »
I think it should stay as it is.



Eh? I shower of unelected nabobs, hereditary has beens and bishops?
Really?
I call no-one 'lord', by the way - save One.
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Anchorman

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2018, 09:53:45 PM »
The current one should be binned: it is anachronistic, is not fit for purpose and is undemocratic. At the same time bin the monarchy and remove the 'established' status of the CofE so as to clear out privilege from our political governance arrangements.

I fail to see why a second chamber is required at all: I can't see why, within a re-jigged wholly-elected parliament, having done the above, it shouldn't be possible to implement processes that allow for a sufficient review of legislation before it is implemented - and without the need for a second chamber at all.
     
Yep.
It's yet another proof that the so-called Act of Union of 1707 was the usual Westminster hypocrisy.
The coffin dodgers club is the same upper house of the old pre-Union English parliament, with the same anachronistic, cretinous traditions and bishops thrown into the mess. There is nothing 'british' about it.
Bin it, and the windsors while they're at it. I call no man 'lord'.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Robbie

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2018, 10:29:35 PM »
Ippy:- "Waite till that big eared, talking to his plants, prat gets placed in that position, we got Betty by luck alone, choice didn't come into it.

I expect Phill the Greek has used the bathroom 365 times over the last year, so that'll be another 365 medals for him."

Unbelievably rude.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2018, 08:52:38 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Union_of_Fascists
Note in particular
Inconclusive. There is no mention of what I would enshrine, that at some point in the college system every person of a certain age and beyond has a democratic vote in electing their college.
That is far more democratic than what we have today where there is at most only a vague indirect influence in who gets the ermine.
My other favoured alternative is Lordship on the basis of jury service recruitment and territorial army type dispensations for those so recruited.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:31:38 AM by The poster formerly known as.... »

Anchorman

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2018, 08:56:42 AM »
I see someone brought up the "thousand years of parliamwent" tripe. The UK Parliament hasn't existed for a thousand years. Only three hundred - in the form bastardised friom the old English parliament. Tradition's a funny thing, eh? All that black rod, knock on wood, traipsing over to the house of coffin dodgers to hear the puppet on the golden chair deliver a speech has no connection whatsoever with 'britain'....the events it mourns happened before the creation of the wedding-cake flummery known as the 'mother of parliaments'. Not much of a mother. Then, it's not much of a parliament, either.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ippy

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2018, 12:59:02 PM »
Ippy:- "Waite till that big eared, talking to his plants, prat gets placed in that position, we got Betty by luck alone, choice didn't come into it.

I expect Phill the Greek has used the bathroom 365 times over the last year, so that'll be another 365 medals for him."

Unbelievably rude.

Yes Rob, and I was holding back.

Surly most of us could do all sorts of charitable works if we had the path in front of us swept everywhere we went.

The waster you speak of more than likely had everything charitable set up for him, like most royals, they use these, set up for them, charitable works for propaganda purposes, performed so that people forget that that these royals are in positions that are not needed any more, redundant, and there are, unfortunatly, plenty of people still around
that allow themselves to be taken in by this simple child like royalist propaganda.

Regards ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2018, 01:31:44 PM »
Yes Rob, and I was holding back.

Surly most of us could do all sorts of charitable works if we had the path in front of us swept everywhere we went.

The waster you speak of more than likely had everything charitable set up for him, like most royals, they use these, set up for them, charitable works for propaganda purposes, performed so that people forget that that these royals are in positions that are not needed any more, redundant, and there are, unfortunatly, plenty of people still around
that allow themselves to be taken in by this simple child like royalist propaganda.

Regards ippy
I'm not going to allow you to get away with that last comment! :) I am not *taken in*, I am not a fool, I see all the positive aspects of the huge number of jobs of all sorts and in many and varied aspects of life that go with the current way of things. And Remember that we have evolved, via random mutations, natural selection etc, and during that 2.5 million-year evolution, there has never been any indication that enjoyment of spectacle, tradition,  and multiple aspects of entertainment is likely to show any sign of extinction. It would be no good either suggesting, for instance, that historic houses, stately homes, etc would be just as visited if the system of which they are a part was binned. The fact that the system muddles along in as sprightly and interesting a way as always makes it WORK.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2018, 01:34:55 PM »
You still don't get it, do you!

Your brain is so full of bile that you cannot even see what is obvious to other people. Charles is not in charge of his own life. He is only permitted to do what others permit him to do. He is a prisoner.

He does "charitable work" because (other than playing soldiers in his mother's own army) he is not allowed to do anything else. He is not "a waster", his humanity is being wasted because - thanks to the British constitution - he is being preserved to be the biggest puppet in the world.

You betray your own humanity by your arrogant, vacuous and (to quote Robbie) rude utterances,
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

ippy

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2018, 01:53:26 PM »
I'm not going to allow you to get away with that last comment! :) I am not *taken in*, I am not a fool, I see all the positive aspects of the huge number of jobs of all sorts and in many and varied aspects of life that go with the current way of things. And Remember that we have evolved, via random mutations, natural selection etc, and during that 2.5 million-year evolution, there has never been any indication that enjoyment of spectacle, tradition,  and multiple aspects of entertainment is likely to show any sign of extinction. It would be no good either suggesting, for instance, that historic houses, stately homes, etc would be just as visited if the system of which they are a part was binned. The fact that the system muddles along in as sprightly and interesting a way as always makes it WORK.

Try visiting Versailles.

Regards ippy

ippy

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2018, 02:04:10 PM »
You still don't get it, do you!

Your brain is so full of bile that you cannot even see what is obvious to other people. Charles is not in charge of his own life. He is only permitted to do what others permit him to do. He is a prisoner.

He does "charitable work" because (other than playing soldiers in his mother's own army) he is not allowed to do anything else. He is not "a waster", his humanity is being wasted because - thanks to the British constitution - he is being preserved to be the biggest puppet in the world.

You betray your own humanity by your arrogant, vacuous and (to quote Robbie) rude utterances,

I'm so sorry that the nasturtiums I plant on the cuddly little Royal system seems to upset you people, why should I have take up this lovie-dovie drooling over this anachronistic system too?

Regards ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2018, 02:33:16 PM »
I'm so sorry that the nasturtiums I plant on the cuddly little Royal system seems to upset you people, why should I have take up this lovie-dovie drooling over this anachronistic system too?

Regards ippy
Sow where in, for instance, my posts is there any 'lovey-dovey drooling'? It is practical, clearly thought-out common sense.

And, yes, I have visited Versailles. Apart from the fact that the French monarchy did not survive, and particularly not in the way the British monarchy has, and there are no equivalent palaces in this country.
I  have also visited the Hermitage in St Petersburg, where the Communist leaders and government enjoyed having their offices. They did not destroy it - even they knew one way or another it needed preserving.

One thing that was learnt - too late - from the invasion of Iraq was that you don't destroy something like even a bad government unless you have something better, and thoroughly and better-thought-out, to replace it.
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ippy

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Re: The Upper House
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2018, 03:59:30 PM »
Sow where in, for instance, my posts is there any 'lovey-dovey drooling'? It is practical, clearly thought-out common sense.

And, yes, I have visited Versailles. Apart from the fact that the French monarchy did not survive, and particularly not in the way the British monarchy has, and there are no equivalent palaces in this country.
I  have also visited the Hermitage in St Petersburg, where the Communist leaders and government enjoyed having their offices. They did not destroy it - even they knew one way or another it needed preserving.

One thing that was learnt - too late - from the invasion of Iraq was that you don't destroy something like even a bad government unless you have something better, and thoroughly and better-thought-out, to replace it.

I wouldn't have wanted to chop off heads, but at that time that was how many people were when in rebellion  at that time in history although that doesn't mean I approve of these methods.

I don't see it in any way sensible or in any way justifiable to support any people including our royalty with undue privilege.

When I refer to undue privilege, it doesn't mean that I think this present head of state hasn't done a remarkable job, but it is to my mind plain silly to rely on the luck of the draw as to who we have performing this important job as head of state.

It's the principle for me I would rather burn the money that's taken from my taxes than contribute it to these kept people that should have been consigned to history long ago.

I cannot see where any common sense comes in this antiquated idea, you wouldn't bow and scrape to me or anyone similar why to these people? They're no better than the next person, it's a totally artificial idea.

Why do people look up to these royals that have been fed off of the fat of the land at no expense to themselves or look up to anyone else brought up in exactly similar circumstances? There is no sensible reason to do so.

They, the royals are no longer needed, they're surplus to requirements, they must go.
 
Regards ippy