Assisted dying on the agenda in Guernsey

[floo]

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[SteveH]

Good for Guernsey. Cue lots of fake hand-wringing by the anti-choice brigade.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Good for Guernsey. Cue lots of fake hand-wringing by the anti-choice brigade.

I'm not against people topping themselves it's getting someone else to do it I can't square with"topping yourself".

[Rhiannon]

I'm not against people topping themselves it's getting someone else to do it I can't square with"topping yourself".

But generally suicide is painful, hit and miss and can leave a person with worse health problems than they had to start with. And some people are physically incapable of committing suicide unassisted. The principle with assisted dying is that it removes the pain, the uncertainty and indignity of suicide, and also spares whoever it is who would discover the body. It’s kind and compassionate.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But generally suicide is painful, hit and miss and can leave a person with worse health problems than they had to start with. And some people are physically incapable of committing suicide unassisted. The principle with assisted dying is that it removes the pain, the uncertainty and indignity of suicide, and also spares whoever it is who would discover the body. It’s kind and compassionate.

I find that if I put myself in the place of the person in want of assistance to die.I feel uncomfortable about roping anybody in. Thus in my usual self I cannot envisage inflicting that role on any one.

But what I can also envisage is that there are already people who would wish to sack medical staff for not taking part and those who want it for aesthetic and economic reasons.

[Rhiannon]

I find that if I put myself in the place of the person in want of assistance to die.I feel uncomfortable about roping anybody in. Thus in my usual self I cannot envisage inflicting that role on any one.

But what I can also envisage is that there are already people who would wish to sack medical staff for not taking part and those who want it for aesthetic and economic reasons.

Slippery slope arguments aside, I get where you are coming from in feeling uncomfortable but we are talking about a medical procedure offered by those already experienced in end of life care. Nobody is going to be forced into doing it, or witnessing it.

I’ve posted before about a man that I knew who had motor neurone disease; he killed himself in the only way he was able, by driving his motorised wheelchair into his garden pond. Drowning is a painful death. His wife found him when she got home from shopping. Surely as a decent society we can offer better to people like him.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Slippery slope arguments aside, I get where you are coming from in feeling uncomfortable but we are talking about a medical procedure offered by those already experienced in end of life care. Nobody is going to be forced into doing it, or witnessing it.

I’ve posted before about a man that I knew who had motor neurone disease; he killed himself in the only way he was able, by driving his motorised wheelchair into his garden pond. Drowning is a painful death. His wife found him when she got home from shopping. Surely as a decent society we can offer better to people like him.

It is not a slippery slope because I conjecture that there already are people who want this for reasons which are not kind and compassionate.

In terms of finding my dead body I assume people will find it dead under any circumstances.
I believe I would not want to rope anyone else in as the cause of my death.

[Rhiannon]

Nobody is asking you to rope anyone in though. Just that others have the right to do differently.

It’s a slippery slope argument because although people may want to die for reasons that may seem trivial, or greedy relatives want people out of the way for hard cash, that doesn’t mean that a law enabling assisted dying would allow them to. Assisted dying is not euthanasia.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody is asking you to rope anyone in though. Just that others have the right to do differently.

I just doubt whether assisting in a killing comes in the category of human right.

[Rhiannon]

I just doubt whether assisting in a killing comes in the category of human right.

What the he’ll is wrong with you, Vlad? Why completely misrepresent what I said?

And where’s your compassion for what happened to the people I knew? I note you don’t comment. You aren’t a stupid man; you must know the difference between discovering someone who has died in their bed (assisted or otherwise) and a suicide. Bloated from drowning, face blackened from hanging, covered in vomit from an overdose... yet you think ‘topping yourself’ is preferable to assisted dying even in the face of the suffering of those who are ill and those that love them.

[Anchorman]

My home island's government, The States of Guernsey, are debating whether to permit assisted dying. If the proposition is passed it will be the only place under British jurisdiction to rule in its favour. If this happens it will only apply to people living in Guernsey, unlike Dignitas in Switzerland.

What sickens me is that if legislation is passed, it has to be approved by Lizzie Windsor's Privy council.
Why?

[Rhiannon]

What sickens me is that if legislation is passed, it has to be approved by Lizzie Windsor's Privy council.
Why?

Of everything around this, you are bothered most by the issue? Really?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What the he’ll is wrong with you, Vlad? Why completely misrepresent what I said?

And where’s your compassion for what happened to the people I knew? I note you don’t comment. You aren’t a stupid man; you must know the difference between discovering someone who has died in their bed (assisted or otherwise) and a suicide. Bloated from drowning, face blackened from hanging, covered in vomit from an overdose... yet you think ‘topping yourself’ is preferable to assisted dying even in the face of the suffering of those who are ill and those that love them.

But surely you must have considered  these points.

[SteveH]

I'm not against people topping themselves it's getting someone else to do it I can't square with"topping yourself".

Suicide is, apparently, quite difficult even if you're fit. If you're paralysed or bedridden, it's impossible.

[Robbie]

That's the problem with paralysed people. If their paralysis is gradual they would be able to commit suicide, not difficult to knock yourself with pills and a few drinks at a time when no-one else is going to come in. Which I'm not advocating! Merely being pragmatic.

It must be very difficult indeed to assist a suicide, I'm a believer in helping people to spend their last days comfortably with every medication available. Not the same as administering a dose you know is final. It's hard no matter you think it justified. I've read the Dignitas clinic has a cold and hard atmosphere even allowing for the staff having to be detached.

There will be people who want to do it & like doing it and as well as enjoying their job, they're making a good living. Imagine doing that for a career.

[Rhiannon]

That's the problem with paralysed people. If their paralysis is gradual they would be able to commit suicide, not difficult to knock yourself with pills and a few drinks at a time when no-one else is going to come in. Which I'm not advocating! Merely being pragmatic.

It must be very difficult indeed to assist a suicide, I'm a believer in helping people to spend their last days comfortably with every medication available. Not the same as administering a dose you know is final. It's hard no matter you think it justified. I've read the Dignitas clinic has a cold and hard atmosphere even allowing for the staff having to be detached.

There will be people who want to do it & like doing it and as well as enjoying their job, they're making a good living. Imagine doing that for a career.

That’s extremely cynical. I’m surprised.

Surely we've all heard anecdotes about how in the past medical staff have assisted with dying when suffering became too great. It’s nothing new. It’s certainly no more barbaric than withdrawing life support and then waiting for someone to stop breathing, something that happens routinely. It’s naive to think that palliative care can relieve all pain and suffering, especially when it comes to illnesses such as motor neurone disease.

And to repeat, it isn’t easy to commit suicide. Overdosing usually results in a protracted death inhaling your own vomit, or irreversible organ failure that can take days to take effect.

[Anchorman]

Of everything around this, you are bothered most by the issue? Really?

   



Yes.
Because, if the democratically elected representatives vote in favour - and, for the record, I hope they do - why should it be left to unelected 'UK' people, who are not citizens of the island, to approve - or potentially reject - the legislation?

[ippy]

My wife and I have discussed this and we have both agreed that we will do whatever's necessary for each other regardless of the law and take the consequences, that is, of course, if we found ourselves in such an unfortunate health position where this form assistance was quite obviously the the best answer.

Bollocks to the lawmakers on this ridiculous reluctance to observe the overwhelming demand to bring us some sort of remedy to this rotten problem.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I know I have mentioned this before but to preserve societies sense of gravity about taking life, Public executioners had to face the process of a trial after each execution. Because of witness and law, acquittal or maybe it was pardon was always straight forward.

Should Assisted dying as it is so called be introduced I see no reason not to maintain this tradition as a reminder of the serious with which we should treat life and death.

Those who disagree are IMHO shaking hands with reducing the value of life and their pleas of kindness and compassion hollow particularly those deathlusters who will claim it would cost too much.

[Rhiannon]

I know I have mentioned this before but to preserve societies sense of gravity about taking life, Public executioners had to face the process of a trial after each execution. Because of witness and law acquittal was always straight forward.

Should Assisted dying as it is so called be introduced I see no reason not to maintain this tradition as a reminder of the serious with which we should treat life and death.

Those who disagree are IMHO shaking hands with reducing the value of life and their pleas of kindness and compassion hollow particularly those deathlusters who will claim it would cost too much.

So I can only assume you are unaware that every death at Dignitas is investigated by the Swiss police, and in each case they are assured that the deaths are suicides and not murders.

‘Death lusters’ ... note to self, stop troll feeding.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So I can only assume you are unaware that every death at Dignitas is investigated by the Swiss police, and in each case they are assured that the deaths are suicides and not murders.

‘Death lusters’ ... note to self, stop troll feeding.

That is the kind of mechanism that is needed. However I feel that is only taking things half seriously.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

‘Death lusters’ ... note to self, stop troll feeding.

What do you propose we call people who want assisted dying cheaply?

[Rhiannon]

What do you propose we call people who want assisted dying cheaply?

Who are these people? The people of Guernsey? Posters here?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who are these people? The people of Guernsey? Posters here?

These are people that would waive any statutory investigation or trial subsequent to an assisted suicide on the grounds that these things cost. Let's see if that includes posters on here shall we?

[SteveH]

I know I have mentioned this before but to preserve societies sense of gravity about taking life, Public executioners had to face the process of a trial after each execution. Because of witness and law, acquittal or maybe it was pardon was always straight forward.

I could neither confirm nor refute this via google, but I strongly suspect that it's nonsense. The hanged person was always the subject of a coroner's court, apparently, and I suspect that this is a confused version of that. I am, and always have been, a firm opponent of the death penalty in all circumstances, for what it's worth.