World Cup 2018

[Rhiannon]

It's all the Olympic hooligans that get me.

But on the plus side - no Clare Balding.

[Rhiannon]

In general I prefer watching stuff where I don't really support either team but they play well.

I like both. My son loves watching European football.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's all the Olympic hooligans that get me.

Sure hooliganism is a big problem in football. But it isn't just a problem in national team matches, there is just as much (maybe more) in club games so you cannot link it to nationalism associated with the world cup.

But regarding the Olympics - it is unlikely to generate hooliganism as it mostly involves spectators going along out of curiosity and ability to 'experience' the event, rather than hard core fans of the sport they are watching. In 2012 we got tickets for the women's basketball (all we were allocated from our application) and had a lovely day out with the family. Thoroughly enjoyed it, although neither us, nor most people around us had the slightest clue as to what was going on. In fact they had a short 'primer' before the game to explain how is worked, the scoring etc. Can you imagine needing the same before a football match?

[Nearly Sane]

Sure hooliganism is a big problem in football. But it isn't just a problem in national team matches, there is just as much (maybe more) in club games so you cannot link it to nationalism associated with the world cup.

But regarding the Olympics - it is unlikely to generate hooliganism as it mostly involves spectators going along out of curiosity and ability to 'experience' the event, rather than hard core fans of the sport they are watching. In 2012 we got tickets for the women's basketball (all we were allocated from our application) and had a lovely day out with the family. Thoroughly enjoyed it, although neither us, nor most people around us had the slightest clue as to what was going on. In fact they had a short 'primer' before the game to explain how is worked, the scoring etc. Can you imagine needing the same before a football match?

I have absolutely no idea why that is significant? Surely the lack of Olympic hooligans means there is less ethnic nationalism. That people go and see sports that they  don't follow is irrelevant  to that?

[ProfessorDavey]

Surely the lack of Olympic hooligans means there is less ethnic nationalism.

Why do you think that hooliganism in football has anything to do with ethnic nationalism? When Swansea and Cardiff fans have a punch-up, or Leeds vs Sheffield Wednesday or Galatasaray and Fenerbahçe or Catania and Palermo etc, etc what on earth has that to do with ethnic nationalism. Hooliganism in football is certainly to do with tribalism, but certainly not exclusively nor even predominantly tribalism associated with an allegiance to ethnic nationalism.

[ProfessorDavey]

I like both. My son loves watching European football.

Me too - I really enjoy watching a great game where I am entirely neutral and frankly don't care who wins. But I also love the different experience of watching a game where you care passionately who wins with its heightened highs and lows.

Both are great and one of the reasons why the world cup is so fantastic - the games come thick and fast so there are daily opportunities to enjoy the first type of game, then every few days you get the second kind (which sadly has always ended in a low).

[Nearly Sane]

Why do you think that hooliganism in football has anything to do with ethnic nationalism? When Swansea and Cardiff fans have a punch-up, or Leeds vs Sheffield Wednesday or Galatasaray and Fenerbahçe or Catania and Palermo etc, etc what on earth has that to do with ethnic nationalism. Hooliganism in football is certainly to do with tribalism, but certainly not exclusively nor even predominantly tribalism associated with an allegiance to ethnic nationalism.

False dichotomy. That there is hooliganism to do with non ethnic nationalism is not an indication that there is no hooliganism to do with ethnic nationalism.

Are you saying that Russian football hooligans are not in any sense related to ethnic nationalism?

[ProfessorDavey]

False dichotomy. That there is hooliganism to do with non ethnic nationalism is not an indication that there is no hooliganism to do with ethnic nationalism.

Are you saying that Russian football hooligans are not in any sense related to ethnic nationalism?

I think hooliganism (e.g. in football) is related to a certain type of tribalism - if it was about ethnic nationalism per se then you'd get just as much in every sporting event involving a Russian national team - but you don't. Just because at times tribalism is hung onto a national team as a badge of convenience doesn't mean it is driven by ethnic nationalism.

[ProfessorDavey]

Are you saying that Russian football hooligans are not in any sense related to ethnic nationalism?

But most of the football hooliganism in Russia is associated with club sides - so when the highly organised 'ultra'-type groups from FC Spartak Moscow have a ruck with their equivalents from FC Lokomotiv Moscow, how on earth is that to do with ethnic nationalism.

[Nearly Sane]

I think hooliganism (e.g. in football) is related to a certain type of tribalism - if it was about ethnic nationalism per se then you'd get just as much in every sporting event involving a Russian national team - but you don't. Just because at times tribalism is hung onto a national team as a badge of convenience doesn't mean it is driven by ethnic nationalism.

Again no one has said it's all hooliganism in football is about ethnic nationalism. In what way do you want to argue that those who follow a flag and approach it in a tribal manner are not being ethnically nationalist? Because it seems about the definition.

[Nearly Sane]

But most of the football hooliganism in Russia is associated with club sides - so when the highly organised 'ultra'-type groups from FC Spartak Moscow have a ruck with their equivalents from FC Lokomotiv Moscow, how on earth is that to do with ethnic nationalism.

Yet we are talking about what happens with support of the national team. Given no one is saying that all tribalism in football is ethnic nationalism -  using the false dichotomy for the umpteenth time is just pointless.

[ProfessorDavey]

Again no one has said it's all hooliganism in football is about ethnic nationalism. In what way do you want to argue that those who follow a flag and approach it in a tribal manner are not being ethnically nationalist? Because it seems about the definition.

They are following a team, not a flag. And most England fans (and those of other national sides) are also fans of club sides - which is why you usually see flags which are a combination of the banner of the national team with the name of their club side adorned.

And what has ethnicity got to do with it - actually one of the features of national sides over the past couple of decades is that ethnicity has become increasingly irrelevant - so a significant proportion of the England squad are not 'ethnically English' i.e. white and the same is true for most other leading national sides.

[Nearly Sane]

They are following a team, not a flag. And most England fans (and those of other national sides) are also fans of club sides - which is why you usually see flags which are a combination of the banner of the national team with the name of their club side adorned.

And what has ethnicity got to do with it - actually one of the features of national sides over the past couple of decades is that ethnicity has become increasingly irrelevant - so a significant proportion of the England squad are not 'ethnically English' i.e. white and the same is true for most other leading national sides.

That they follow  club in addition is irrelevant. Their tribalism is based on a perception of the team and the flag. Ethnicity is still often relevant in teams, and that it is reducing, which you post admits, merely states it as a problem.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yet we are talking about what happens with support of the national team.

Which is merely a different form of tribalism associated with a different football team.

So I ask again if football hooliganism associated with national sides is about ethnic nationalism (as you claim) why is it only (or largely only) associated with football. Surely there would be loads of opportunities for the same ethnic nationalists to show their support for their national side through acts of hooliganism whenever their cricket, rugby, ice hockey, speed skating etc etc teams are playing. But they don't.

[ProfessorDavey]

Their tribalism is based on a perception of the team and the flag.

I disagree - it is based on a perception of the team - the flag is largely an irrelevance. And the bottom line (once again) is tribalism - they are my team 'I'm City til I die' ... 'I'm England til I die' - same thing - that one is a club team with the name of a city in it and the other is a national team linked to a county isn't the point - the point is that this is their team.

[Nearly Sane]

Which is merely a different form of tribalism associated with a different football team.

So I ask again if football hooliganism associated with national sides is about ethnic nationalism (as you claim) why is it only (or largely only) associated with football. Surely there would be loads of opportunities for the same ethnic nationalists to show their support for their national side through acts of hooliganism whenever their cricket, rugby, ice hockey, speed skating etc etc teams are playing. But they don't.

Of course it's merely a different form of tribalism - again no one has suggested ethice nationalism isn't tribalism,

And there is the opportunity for ethnic nationalism to be associated with other sports, that isn't an argument against being associated with one sport or more sports. Your point appears specious 

[Nearly Sane]

I disagree - it is based on a perception of the team - the flag is largely an irrelevance. And the bottom line (once again) is tribalism - they are my team 'I'm City til I die' ... 'I'm England til I die' - same thing - that one is a club team with the name of a city in it and the other is a national team linked to a county isn't the point - the point is that this is their team.

So when the Russian fans boasted about capturing English flags it was irrelevant?

[ProfessorDavey]

Of course it's merely a different form of tribalism - again no one has suggested ethice nationalism isn't tribalism,

But you have failed to argue the case that for national teams it is about ethnic nationalism, while for club sides it clearly isn't.

And there is the opportunity for ethnic nationalism to be associated with other sports, that isn't an argument against being associated with one sport or more sports. Your point appears specious

Not at all - if ethnic nationalism is the trigger for hooliganism in the case of national football teams, why don't we see it for national teams in other sports. Surely if you are a fervent enough ethnic nationalist to give others a good kicking in defence of your national football team, you'd also be just as keen to do so in defence of your national lawn bowls team.

[ProfessorDavey]

So when the Russian fans boasted about capturing English flags it was irrelevant?

I suspect the FC Spartak Moscow make the same boasts about capturing FC Lokomotiv Moscow flags and banners - what's your point. It is about getting one over on another rival team.

[Nearly Sane]

But you have failed to argue the case that for national teams it is about ethnic nationalism, while for club sides it clearly isn't.
Not at all - if ethnic nationalism is the trigger for hooliganism in the case of national football teams, why don't we see it for national teams in other sports. Surely if you are a fervent enough ethnic nationalist to give others a good kicking in defence of your national football team, you'd also be just as keen to do so in defence of your national lawn bowls team.

So Lazio, Millwall, and indeed Spartak have no ethic nationalism elements in the support? Really? Again you are using a straw man and a false dichotomy. Whether there is ethnic nationalism in club support tells you nothing about it being in national team support, but since no one has suggested anything of the sort, then your point is specious.

As to the difference in how something might be supported then that is all about how important it is seen and how it might be seen as relating to ethnicity.

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect the FC Spartak Moscow make the same boasts about capturing FC Lokomotiv Moscow flags and banners - what's your point. It is about getting one over on another rival team.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/night-russian-ultras-we-respect-8190868

[Maeght]

I disagree - it is based on a perception of the team - the flag is largely an irrelevance. And the bottom line (once again) is tribalism - they are my team 'I'm City til I die' ... 'I'm England til I die' - same thing - that one is a club team with the name of a city in it and the other is a national team linked to a county isn't the point - the point is that this is their team.

It is tribalism - the them and us senario and people of a certain type will attachthemselves to opportunities and events where they can act out this tribalism. Football has been the traditional vehicle for this. World Cups are alos opportunities though for cross cultural 'bonding'. In Frande in 98 I spent time with Argentinian, Japanese, Dutch and Croatian fans, people who I would never have met otherwise.

[Nearly Sane]

It is tribalism - the them and us senario and people of a certain type will attachthemselves to opportunities and events where they can act out this tribalism. Football has been the traditional vehicle for this. World Cups are alos opportunities though for cross cultural 'bonding'. In Frande in 98 I spent time with Argentinian, Japanese, Dutch and Croatian fans, people who I would never have met otherwise.

Did you find any elements in the support of the teams that was ethically nationalist?

[Maeght]

Did you find any elements in the support of the teams that was ethically nationalist?

Some were, especially the Croatian fans. The Dutch were full of admiration for English football and grounds. The Japanese were passionate but inclusive and fun. The Argentinians, well, we didn't mention being English!

[ad_orientem]

In general I prefer watching stuff where I don't really support either team but they play well.

It's probably because I don't really have any second teams. I love the teams I support with a passion and hate all other teams, especially Millwall. As an exception I have watched some Liverpool games this season (my best mate over here, who's from England, is a Liverpool fan) and have enjoyed watching them play at the same time wishing West Ham played that way too.