World Cup 2018

[Maeght]

In general I prefer watching stuff where I don't really support either team but they play well.

Not me, I need to prefer one team or the other usually. I try never to watch Man Utd games though, as I don't want to risk seeing them win!

[ProfessorDavey]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/night-russian-ultras-we-respect-8190868

An article which pretty well entirely proves my point - that the motivation for Russian hooliganism in football (according to the article) is basically nothing to do with ethnic nationalism (there is a single sentence to do with this) but pretty well entirely about a deep rooted cultural tribalism, initially from 'stenka na stenku' which was an organised violence between neighbouring groups, transposed to football clubs as a convenient vehicle for the tribalism.

[ProfessorDavey]

It is tribalism - the them and us senario and people of a certain type will attachthemselves to opportunities and events where they can act out this tribalism. Football has been the traditional vehicle for this. World Cups are alos opportunities though for cross cultural 'bonding'. In Frande in 98 I spent time with Argentinian, Japanese, Dutch and Croatian fans, people who I would never have met otherwise.

Exactly.

And in a manner the violence associated with national teams is almost like an interesting and exotic way to develop the club hooliganism a little further. Providing the opportunity to get together with some of the tribes you usually fight and challenge yourself against a new group.

[ProfessorDavey]

Did you find any elements in the support of the teams that was ethically nationalist?

Of course - but then there are element in the support of my football team that are vegetarian. One of the most loyal supporters of my team is a committed choral singer (how I know him) singing in multiple choirs. Does that mean that football hooliganism is somehow linked to vegetarianism or choral-singing?

[ProfessorDavey]

Some were, especially the Croatian fans. The Dutch were full of admiration for English football and grounds. The Japanese were passionate but inclusive and fun. The Argentinians, well, we didn't mention being English!

I guess for the Croatian fans it is because their nation (and therefore their national team) is very young so the very presence of a national team is a manifestation of recent nationhood. That isn't the case for most national football teams.

[SteveH]

When does the yawnathon start?

[Nearly Sane]

When does the yawnathon start?

14th June

[SteveH]

Thanks.

[Rhiannon]

Talked to my boy about the Rest of the World team. Henrikh Mkh of course, and he wondered about Aubameyang.

[Nearly Sane]

Talked to my boy about the Rest of the World team. Henrikh Mkh of course, and he wondered about Aubameyang.

Some suggestions here.


https://sillyseason.com/list/best-xi-footballers-who-will-not-be-going-to-the-2018-world-cup-108284/3/

[Rhiannon]

Some suggestions here.


https://sillyseason.com/list/best-xi-footballers-who-will-not-be-going-to-the-2018-world-cup-108284/3/

But I'd argue that the Dutch players should be there, as possibly should the Chileans. I think this only works with genuine no-hopers, otherwise ProfD starts to have a point about those who fail to qualify getting a second chance. It really should only fall to those in teams who never stood a chance to begin with.

[SteveH]

Scotland isn't in, then?

[Rhiannon]

Scotland isn't in, then?

Are there any Scots who would qualify for the Team of Genius we are putting together?

[Nearly Sane]

Are there any Scots who would qualify for the Team of Genius we are putting together?

An argument could be made for Kieran Tierney in a squad but other than that, no.

[SteveH]

I bet Gareth Bale is seriously pissed off that he has to play for a no-hope national side like Wales!

[Rhiannon]

I bet Gareth Bale is seriously pissed off that he has to play for a no-hope national side like Wales!

But they aren’t. A year ago they were ranked above England.

[ProfessorDavey]

I bet Gareth Bale is seriously pissed off that he has to play for a no-hope national side like Wales!

Firstly he doesn't have to play for them, he chose to. He was qualified to play for England too.

Secondly Wales aren't so bad at the moment, and that is of course partly due to Bale himself. He's one of very few Welshman alive who have actually played in a major finals tournament.

Finally I suspect he defines his career and its success in terms of club honours, and he isn't doing badly on that one so far, although I passionately hope he doesn't add to his club honours tonight.

[SteveH]

I dare say you're right. I don't really follow football, but I thought that Wales was not prominent in football because they were more of a rugby nation.

[ProfessorDavey]

I dare say you're right. I don't really follow football, but I thought that Wales was not prominent in football because they were more of a rugby nation.

Wales made the semi-finals of the European championship in 2016 - the last time England made the semis of a major tournament was 1996.

Arguably Wales are currently better at football than rugby. And I'd actually challenge the notion that Wales are a rugby nation rather than a football one - its a bit of a myth and doesn't stand up to looking at the facts, e.g. numbers of registered football and rugby players, number of teams and numbers of spectators watching week in week out.

[Rhiannon]

I dare say you're right. I don't really follow football, but I thought that Wales was not prominent in football because they were more of a rugby nation.

It’s a comparatively recent thing - Giggs would have made it into my RotW team as Wales were pretty useless in his day; Bale wouldn’t as Wales should have qualified this time around. Even so, for a tiny nation they punch above their weight.

[Nearly Sane]

It’s a comparatively recent thing - Giggs would have made it into my RotW team as Wales were pretty useless in his day; Bale wouldn’t as Wales should have qualified this time around. Even so, for a tiny nation they punch above their weight.

And they did reach the quarter finals of the World Cup in 1958 with a rather good team that stretched the Brazilian team in that quarter final.

[Rhiannon]

And they did reach the quarter finals of the World Cup in 1958 with a rather good team that stretched the Brazilian team in that quarter final.

Bit before my time. 

I do wonder what Chris Coleman was thinking when he swapped Wales for Sunderland.

And I’m also wondering whether the way in which most players from the Welsh squad play outside of Wales at club level drives up standards. Would the same happen for Scottish football?

[Nearly Sane]

Bit before my time. 

I do wonder what Chris Coleman was thinking when he swapped Wales for Sunderland.

And I’m also wondering whether the way in which most players from the Welsh squad play outside of Wales at club level drives up standards. Would the same happen for Scottish football?

A lot of the Scottish squad do play outside but they tend to play at Championship level.  We just don't have the same quality that we had when we had so many players in the top teams in England, and a selection of good players in a variety of teams in Scotland. I hope that Gerrard makes Rangers competitive, and that Hibs and Aberdeen kick on from last season.

If Liverpool perform well tonight, I suppose that the RotW squad could use Andrew Robertson.


I think Coleman may have thought the only way was down, and how right he was. On the subject of punching above their weight, Northern Ireland under Michael O'Neil do precisely that.

[Rhiannon]

Well many of the Welsh squad play at Championship level too. I just don't get what happened to Scottish football. I was in Peebles as a 6 yr old when Scotland were in the WC in '78. That's what I grew up with - the expectation that Scotland would be up there with England and even surpass them. I know that Scottish football seems to have shot itself in the foot, but even so there should still be the talent. When I was growing up many of the greatest players in the then First Division were Scots. Do these things just come in waves?

[Nearly Sane]

The last in football for Scotland is another country, we did things differently there. I suspect that there are a number of reasons but football is not of the same cultural importance it had. 51 years ago yesterday, Celtic win the European Cup, but people forget that Rangers were in the final of the Cup Winners Cup that year, and obviously there was the 3-2 drubbing  of England, the World Champions at Wembley.