Author Topic: Why evolution is true  (Read 41735 times)

Sriram

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2018, 11:09:13 AM »
I think you'll find the West had a handle on Philosophy long before the British Raj. Think Pythagoras.

As to mysticism...... a whole other basket of fish, which I have no time for filleting at the moment. But in short, mysticism does nothing but pander to the already existing wishes and thoughts of the person involved. The embodiment of confirmation bias.


See what I mean!!!

Aruntraveller

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2018, 11:22:47 AM »

See what I mean!!!

No I don't.

It's no good claiming this superior position as in "We are all spiritual and philosophical and so much better for it" (with an at least partially false claim) and then ignoring the points made.

In fact I actually hate the assumptions you  make about a country you don't live in.

I could just as easily claim that India on my observations during my travels there is an incredibly backward country with sectarianism rife and superstition being favoured instead of rational thinking. I could claim that, but I wouldn't because A) I know that it is a much more complicated situation than that and my observations are those of an outsider with no deep understanding of the country, and B) I'm not a condescending pillock.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ippy

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2018, 12:58:55 PM »

Actually ekim...all this Indian philosophy is not likely to have any impact in this forum.  I have tried it over nearly 20 years. Explaining the nature of the Intelligence that drives Nature is a very complex thing. Nature (Prakriti) itself is intelligent and human intelligence is only one derivative of it.

I am trying to explain a very simple phenomenon....that of artificial selection and technological evolution....in which evolution is driven by intelligence...and this is not being understood.  They still maintain that evolution and Intelligence are incompatible....and that Intelligence cannot precede evolution.   

Darwin himself came up with Natural Selection only after he observed Artificial Selection.

Yes Sriram you stick to your eastern things like a caged bird picking your horoscope out from a pack of pre-written cards, deep mysticism type thing, it's so progressive when you compare these methods to how we do things in the west.

Ever thought to yourself, 'now how or where do I find any evidence to support supernatural ideas'?

Regards Sriram, ippy


jeremyp

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2018, 02:26:34 PM »
As Rudyard Kipling said: 'OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet' but he did make exceedingly good cakes.  ;)
Clearly he never went to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2018, 02:34:48 PM »
so also the West has to pick up Philosophy and mysticism from India.


Western philosophy is demonstrably superior to modern Eastern philosophy. Science is the result of testing your philosophical ideas against reality. Modern science has its roots in the era of the European enlightenment.
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Bramble

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2018, 02:46:03 PM »

Lol!   Yes....but that was ok in the 19th century. The British lived and ruled India for so long but did no pick up anything.

In today's globalized environment, the East and West cannot ignore each other. Just as India has to pick up Science and Technology from the West...so also the West has to pick up Philosophy and mysticism from India.

The supposed gap between Science and Spirituality/mysticism is artificial and is perpetuated by the West because of scientific and general snobbery. I expect that in coming generations, mainly due to Indian  efforts and perhaps German and American, the gap might close significantly.

Cheers.

Sriram

There is actually a close affinity between the religious and philosophical traditions of Greece and India because both are derived from a common Proto-Indo-European source. One shared cultural inheritance is dualistic thinking, a subject that has been frequently visited on this forum. I think a lot of the disagreement with you is not because of any objection to your Indian cultural heritage but rather because of your commitment to supernatural theories and explanations. Christians who make similar claims come in for just as much stick here, possibly even more so. Another point perhaps worth making is that 'the east' is not a uniform entity. You've made little secret of your dislike of Zen, for instance. Western philosophy is similarly varied, even though it is true that mainstream philosophy in the west has been very slow to embrace eastern philosophical ideas. People are inherently tribal and tend to resist new and alternative ways of seeing the world. Westerners do not have a monopoly on this shortcoming. So called 'western' ways of thinking don't suit all westerners, either. Hence the increasing interest in western countries in oriental and other approaches to spirituality, since at least the time of Blavatski.

Your two decades of posting on forums like this one have clearly jaundiced you somewhat, and perhaps with good reason. One problem is that this kind of forum encourages a confrontational kind of debate where people tend to lose patience with each other after a short while, when it becomes obvious that other folk are too stupid or stubborn to change their minds. Another problem is that discussion of religion and spirituality tends to be reduced to a contest of ideas, which is carried on at a purely intellectual level, thus draining whatever life there might have been in the subject from it at the outset. For me these discussions become interesting when people are prepared to share experiences, but for understandable reasons many posters seldom if ever do this, which is a shame. The subject matter of this forum is one that operates, if at all, at an emotional level, not an intellectual one. It is hardly surprising that so little mutual understanding is ever achieved by bludgeoning each other with ideas.





Sriram

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2018, 03:33:11 PM »
There is actually a close affinity between the religious and philosophical traditions of Greece and India because both are derived from a common Proto-Indo-European source. One shared cultural inheritance is dualistic thinking, a subject that has been frequently visited on this forum. I think a lot of the disagreement with you is not because of any objection to your Indian cultural heritage but rather because of your commitment to supernatural theories and explanations. Christians who make similar claims come in for just as much stick here, possibly even more so. Another point perhaps worth making is that 'the east' is not a uniform entity. You've made little secret of your dislike of Zen, for instance. Western philosophy is similarly varied, even though it is true that mainstream philosophy in the west has been very slow to embrace eastern philosophical ideas. People are inherently tribal and tend to resist new and alternative ways of seeing the world. Westerners do not have a monopoly on this shortcoming. So called 'western' ways of thinking don't suit all westerners, either. Hence the increasing interest in western countries in oriental and other approaches to spirituality, since at least the time of Blavatski.

Your two decades of posting on forums like this one have clearly jaundiced you somewhat, and perhaps with good reason. One problem is that this kind of forum encourages a confrontational kind of debate where people tend to lose patience with each other after a short while, when it becomes obvious that other folk are too stupid or stubborn to change their minds. Another problem is that discussion of religion and spirituality tends to be reduced to a contest of ideas, which is carried on at a purely intellectual level, thus draining whatever life there might have been in the subject from it at the outset. For me these discussions become interesting when people are prepared to share experiences, but for understandable reasons many posters seldom if ever do this, which is a shame. The subject matter of this forum is one that operates, if at all, at an emotional level, not an intellectual one. It is hardly surprising that so little mutual understanding is ever achieved by bludgeoning each other with ideas.


I agree with you. But experiences according to most people here are just internal chemical reactions. They have no bearing on objective reality...or so they believe.  So sharing experiences is rather irrelevant to these discussions.  Purely intellectual ideas and objective evidence are the only criterion around here.

I have no problems with disagreements. But in spite of repeated explanations, in fairly reasonable english, if the argument is not even understood...that's a problem.  It is a mindset problem not a East or West problem.

This stems from the assumption made by many that, if any person argues in favor of spirituality or God or any other supposedly 'supernatural' phenomena, then, they are automatically ignorant of science.  This presumption is at the root of lot of snobbery.

ekim

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2018, 04:27:52 PM »
The ancient Greeks too had ideas on the fundamental nature of reality, some of which sound surprisingly modern.  The Pre-Socratic philosopher Democritus developed an idea resembling atomic theory over two thousand years before Enlightenment Europe started to get back to where the Greeks had been.  Arguably one of the most brilliant minds ever produced by homo sapiens, the entire works of Democritus, and there were a great many, were all destroyed by Theodosius in his elimination of all writings that varied from the Christian script, plunging Europe into a Dark Ages that would last centuries.  Such was the scale of the intellectual catastrophe for European thought, courtesy of the early church.
Yes, such is the nature of autocratic thought, it gets involved with power politics and has a tendency to suppress all other thought.  The Indian metaphysics tended towards how to transcend the realm of thought using the Sattwa/Rajas/ Tamas template and a variety of yogas was developed.  Science seems to revolve around examining Rajas/Tamas e.g. forces and forms, waves and particles, energy and mass and manipulating them, whereas the yogas tend to emphasise Sattwa (intelligence) as a harmonising function which already exists in its own right and naturally manipulates the other two.  It is probably what Eastern healing methods are based upon.

Bramble

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2018, 04:29:14 PM »

I agree with you. But experiences according to most people here are just internal chemical reactions. They have no bearing on objective reality...or so they believe.  So sharing experiences is rather irrelevant to these discussions.  Purely intellectual ideas and objective evidence are the only criterion around here.

I have no problems with disagreements. But in spite of repeated explanations, in fairly reasonable english, if the argument is not even understood...that's a problem.  It is a mindset problem not a East or West problem.

This stems from the assumption made by many that, if any person argues in favor of spirituality or God or any other supposedly 'supernatural' phenomena, then, they are automatically ignorant of science.  This presumption is at the root of lot of snobbery.

I doubt if anyone here actually thinks that experiences are 'just internal chemical reactions' (my italics). I suspect the crux of disagreement may be that others see experiences as emergent phenomena dependent on neural activity, rather than indicative of some sort of separate non-material consciousness or 'objective reality'. We all have experiences but talking about them in these terms takes us into the realm of the intellect, which is perhaps where experience (and life) goes to die. Ideas matter but they matter to us personally at an emotional level and we argue about them principally, I think, because we gather them about us to help build up a sense of solid identity, which may then feel threatened by competing ideas. If spirituality is about anything it is about the whole of life as it is experienced and whilst aspects of it may be expressed as ideas these ideas actually live only at the level of experience. As someone who has never experienced the so called 'supernatural' I find it meaningless to be told about it at the level of ideas. Thus a supernatural God and your belief in reincarnation, for instance, are equally without purchase on my life, not through any refusal on my part to take an interest in them but simply because I am unable to experience why such things matter to other people. Science and spirituality come into conflict when they compete as ideas, which only occurs when spirituality manifests as belief - and this happens, I think, when it loses its indivisible engagement with experienced life and becomes interred in the graveyard of the intellect. Forums like this one offer an opportunity for people to share experiences rather than simply to participate in a futile combat of ideas. For me at least, it would be of far more interest to know what people get out of their beliefs than to read interminable arguments that purport to substantiate them.

Sriram

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2018, 04:40:58 PM »

Ok....the East West discussion was in reply to ekim's post on India philosophy...

On this thread at any rate I have been trying to point out that lot of evolution....technological and due to artificial selection....happens because of intelligent intervention.

So... evolution and intelligent design can and do go together.  They are not mutually exclusive. Simple enough!

Bramble

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2018, 05:01:34 PM »
Ok....the East West discussion was in reply to ekim's post on India philosophy...

On this thread at any rate I have been trying to point out that lot of evolution....technological and due to artificial selection....happens because of intelligent intervention.

So... evolution and intelligent design can and do go together.  They are not mutually exclusive. Simple enough!

OK... so why does it matter to you that 'evolution and intelligent design can and do go together'?

Sriram

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2018, 05:03:44 PM »

That's what the OP was about.....

Gordon

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2018, 05:11:41 PM »
Ok....the East West discussion was in reply to ekim's post on India philosophy...

On this thread at any rate I have been trying to point out that lot of evolution....technological and due to artificial selection....happens because of intelligent intervention.

So... evolution and intelligent design can and do go together.  They are not mutually exclusive. Simple enough!

But 'intelligent intervention' isn't the same thing at all as natural selection as per the TofE.

SweetPea

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2018, 10:59:00 PM »
Sriram

The computer-like programming of DNA in the way of encoding information is certainly a form of design, and also very intelligent.
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ippy

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2018, 10:42:58 AM »
There is actually a close affinity between the religious and philosophical traditions of Greece and India because both are derived from a common Proto-Indo-European source. One shared cultural inheritance is dualistic thinking, a subject that has been frequently visited on this forum. I think a lot of the disagreement with you is not because of any objection to your Indian cultural heritage but rather because of your commitment to supernatural theories and explanations. Christians who make similar claims come in for just as much stick here, possibly even more so. Another point perhaps worth making is that 'the east' is not a uniform entity. You've made little secret of your dislike of Zen, for instance. Western philosophy is similarly varied, even though it is true that mainstream philosophy in the west has been very slow to embrace eastern philosophical ideas. People are inherently tribal and tend to resist new and alternative ways of seeing the world. Westerners do not have a monopoly on this shortcoming. So called 'western' ways of thinking don't suit all westerners, either. Hence the increasing interest in western countries in oriental and other approaches to spirituality, since at least the time of Blavatski.

Your two decades of posting on forums like this one have clearly jaundiced you somewhat, and perhaps with good reason. One problem is that this kind of forum encourages a confrontational kind of debate where people tend to lose patience with each other after a short while, when it becomes obvious that other folk are too stupid or stubborn to change their minds. Another problem is that discussion of religion and spirituality tends to be reduced to a contest of ideas, which is carried on at a purely intellectual level, thus draining whatever life there might have been in the subject from it at the outset. For me these discussions become interesting when people are prepared to share experiences, but for understandable reasons many posters seldom if ever do this, which is a shame. The subject matter of this forum is one that operates, if at all, at an emotional level, not an intellectual one. It is hardly surprising that so little mutual understanding is ever achieved by bludgeoning each other with ideas.

Wouldn't it be better to ignore Siriam's posts rather than flatter these supernatural ideas of his with some sort of a 'discussion' if that's the right word to use?

ippy

Bramble

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2018, 11:15:00 AM »
Wouldn't it be better to ignore Siriam's posts rather than flatter these supernatural ideas of his with some sort of a 'discussion' if that's the right word to use?

ippy

You're probably right, Ippy. I've gone through periods of ignoring him in the past and it was probably a mistake to renew contact again. It wasn't my intention to flatter his ideas though. On the matter of evolution, people who argue for intelligent design invariably do so because they have an agenda, and it was that I wanted to get at. When Darwin proposed his theory he upset a lot of people because the theory challenged scripture, left God out of the picture and claimed that we are related to apes. Those folk were upfront about their reasons for being offended. Today people who argue for intelligent design are more subtle and attempt to do so on the basis of 'evidence', as if presenting a credible alternative scientific opinion, rather than simply being honest that they can't accept the implications of Darwin's theory because it upsets their religious worldview. Arguing against someone's emotionally based beliefs with facts is like trying to scare off a large bull by throwing grass at it. It's what happens here every day. That's why I tried to get Sriram to explain why he was so invested in intelligent design. I'm genuinely interested, because I like to understand how other people function. It's probably a lost cause, though, as you say.

Sriram

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2018, 01:28:49 PM »
Sriram

The computer-like programming of DNA in the way of encoding information is certainly a form of design, and also very intelligent.


Yes SweetPea. It is obvious that there is Intelligence built into every DNA.  There is no doubt about that.

Intelligence, of different kinds, can be both the source and outcome of evolution.

ippy

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2018, 08:46:33 PM »
You're probably right, Ippy. I've gone through periods of ignoring him in the past and it was probably a mistake to renew contact again. It wasn't my intention to flatter his ideas though. On the matter of evolution, people who argue for intelligent design invariably do so because they have an agenda, and it was that I wanted to get at. When Darwin proposed his theory he upset a lot of people because the theory challenged scripture, left God out of the picture and claimed that we are related to apes. Those folk were upfront about their reasons for being offended. Today people who argue for intelligent design are more subtle and attempt to do so on the basis of 'evidence', as if presenting a credible alternative scientific opinion, rather than simply being honest that they can't accept the implications of Darwin's theory because it upsets their religious worldview. Arguing against someone's emotionally based beliefs with facts is like trying to scare off a large bull by throwing grass at it. It's what happens here every day. That's why I tried to get Sriram to explain why he was so invested in intelligent design. I'm genuinely interested, because I like to understand how other people function. It's probably a lost cause, though, as you say.

I would find discussions about intelligent design a bit like explaining how thunder is caused to a cave man, assuming he could communicate in modern English, it looks like we're back to the Eastern, bird in a cage picking out horoscopes written on cards for the gullible again.

Ooh those philistine Westerners they all score zero on mysticism; you can have all of my share Sriram.

When you find how many of the things you keep on coming up with have no evidence to support belief in them, doesn't that ring a bell inside your head now and again?

Regards Sriram, I wish you well, ippy   

SteveH

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2018, 06:29:16 AM »
Wouldn't it be better to ignore Siriam's posts rather than flatter these supernatural ideas of his with some sort of a 'discussion' if that's the right word to use?

ippy
Why are most of the non-believers on this forum so unpleasant and obsessively sarcastic?
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Sriram

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2018, 08:06:29 AM »
Why are most of the non-believers on this forum so unpleasant and obsessively sarcastic?


ippy has a very unique way of ignoring me. He trolls me around!   :D

ippy

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2018, 03:04:55 PM »

ippy has a very unique way of ignoring me. He trolls me around!   :D

Says the man that seems to like believing in blue elephant headed men that like to fly around on some kind of, I assume, flying rat.

Regards to you Sriram, ippy

SteveH

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2018, 03:07:22 PM »
Says the man that seems to like believing in blue elephant headed men that like to fly around on some kind of, I assume, flying rat.

Regards to you Sriram, ippy
As I was saying...
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

ippy

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2018, 03:58:13 PM »
As I was saying...

Am I wrong about the Blue Elephant headed man then?

Regards ippy

trippymonkey

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2018, 04:47:31 PM »
Can YOU prove Ganesh doesn't exist at all.

Is Sriram trying to force you to believe it

Robbie

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2018, 07:19:54 PM »
Why are most of the non-believers on this forum so unpleasant and obsessively sarcastic?

Because they are incapable of thinking outside of their own box Steven. SweetPea can (but she is not a 'non-believer'). Why people cannot see things from other points of view is beyond me and they are so rude! Sririam, on other hand, explains things from his pov very well and is never discourteous. As far as I know he's the only Hindu on here, intelligent and educated too. I love his posts. We don't have to agree with him but it wouldn't hurt to show some manners.

Oh and Ganesh is not always portrayed as blue!
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