Why evolution is true

[Aruntraveller]

Why people cannot see things from other points of view is beyond me and they are so rude

Well, I do try to see others pov, but sometimes it is not possible with some posters. No names. On looking at rudeness though, it strikes me it emanates from both sides in about equal measure.

Also as with 'quality' discussed elsewhere 'rudeness' can be quite hard to define. Some things I find rude you might not and Vicky Versatile.

[Robbie]

Agree there NS but scoffing and sarcasm, especially against people who have posted something well thought out& who are never rude, is wrong from my point of view. Disrespectful& shows gross ignorance. Didn't we all do a certain amount of comparative religion even if not very well taught & go to school with a cross section of people?

I was taught from an early age, in a gentle way and by example, to be sensitive to the views of others. Wouldn't necessarily be easy if we had posters here who were members of cults like 'Children of God' or that Waco bloke but we don't (I'd even be prepared to give them a hearing & try not to be influenced by anything I'd read). Those of Hindu faith are mainstream in our culture & I find what is said here by them (only one) very interesting even if I don't embrace it, wouldn't think of being rude.

Maybe I show my age (58), dunno. Younger people probably feel & react differently.

[Nearly Sane]

Agree there NS but scoffing and sarcasm, especially against people who have posted something well thought out& who are never rude, is wrong from my point of view. Disrespectful& shows gross ignorance. Didn't we all do a certain amount of comparative religion even if not very well taught & go to school with a cross section of people?

I was taught from an early age, in a gentle way and by example, to be sensitive to the views of others. Wouldn't necessarily be easy if we had posters here who were members of cults like 'Children of God' or that Waco bloke but we don't (I'd even be prepared to give them a hearing & try not to be influenced by anything I'd read). Those of Hindu faith are mainstream in our culture & I find what is said here by them (only one) very interesting even if I don't embrace it, wouldn't think of being rude.

Maybe I show my age (58), dunno. Younger people probably feel & react differently.

You mean TV not NS?

[Aruntraveller]

Maybe I show my age (58), dunno. Younger people probably feel & react differently.

I'm not sure age is a defining factor in this case. I think it is more to do with the nature of MB's. From the bits of info dropped out casually by folks here I would say that it is an older demographic. I'm 62 this year and I know that many posters on here are thereabouts and some are older. Not many that much younger, is my impression. I may be wrong.

As to comparative religion, not that I remember. Had a Bible chucked at me at the start of Grammar school and we stuck with that one book for 5 years solid.

[trippymonkey]

NO!!!Indeed not.
Blue usually means having a mind as open & receptive as the sky.

Lord Krishna is nearly always depicted as blue-skinned for that very reason.

N

[Robbie]

My favourite colour too Trippy, beautiful.

Sorry I said NS when I meant Trent, don't know why.
I did do some comparative religion at school Trent, I woudn't say it was very accurate :-), maybe the teachers weren't equipped to talk about non-Christian faiths with any authority but let's face it, there are so many facets of Christianity alone, never mind Judaism, Islam and Hinduism so the religions could only be skimmed. My parents were quite knowledgeable.

When my children were at school individual school children from various faiths did presentations which were interesting. Different times.

Doesn't matter much now anyway, we nearly all dropped religious studies after 'O' level (I do know someone who did it for 'A', bless. She got an A but she wasn't at my school); like most of us I've done my own independent delving since school days but don't pretend to be an expert, it would take a lifetime to be anything like. All I know is I love diversity & try to treat everyone as I would like to be treated.

[ippy]

Can YOU prove Ganesh doesn't exist at all.

Is Sriram trying to force you to believe it

I don't spend my time worrying about rather primitive things usually portrayed in a rather primitive form of art that might just as well be pictures portraying the honey monster, If I did why should I expect any respect for this belief or expect to be taken seriously about it when writing things about other areas of this rather strange belief?

Regards ippy

[Sriram]

Thanks Steve, Nick and Robbie for defending me. I appreciate it.

And never mind ippy.    As I said earlier, poor chap, he tries very hard to ignore me but starts off with his 'blue elephant' thingy every other post, just to make me react. 

By the way, Ganesh, the elephant god, is probably an ancient forest god created by villagers for fear of elephants. There are thousands of such gods across the country. 

The thing is that, in Hinduism, unlike Christianity or Islam, no one forced people to reject their traditional gods and worship something that they considered as the only true God.  All images are false and one is as good as the other.

Instead, in Hinduism, all such gods are treated as avatars or incarnations of the one true God. This helped people to continue with their traditional practices while also integrating them all together as one religion. Hinduism is actually a collection of several religious practices put together.

In other words, in Hinduism whether you worship Ganesh or Shiva or Vishnu or Jesus or allah or any of the other gods it does not matter at all. The faith that you have will awaken your inner divinity... which is the purpose of all worship.

Anyway I think we have strayed sufficiently from the subject of the OP. 

Thanks & Cheers. 

Sriram

[Robbie]

You explain Hinduism eloquently Sririam. There's great beauty & poetry in it, don't know why others can't see that.

I love the story of Durga:- https://www.thoughtco.com/goddess-durga-1770363
which was told to me a couple of years ago by an actress called Durga; I was almost transported into a different world when she told the story.
(You will laugh when I tell you that afterwards my husband described it as Greek mythology  . Bless him, but he did enjoy the narrative.)

Ippy don't get bogged down with Ganesh; Sririam has explained that particular deity.
Instead - rejoice for Anne whom I only found out about recently, would love to see her:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31_LJu9758

We all need beauty in our lives & you were rude about Hinduism which was not forced upon you by sririam. I'dhate the only real Hindu on this forum to back off.The artwork may not be to your taste (ie not like the Jackson Pollacks your rich neighbours have on their walls), but is spectacular nonetheless.

There's room for, if not all, most of us.

[Sriram]

Oh yes...Robbie.  There are hundreds of stories in our epics and puranas. Many of the stories contain several sub stories.

I am not sure if you have read the main two stories that every Hindu knows and loves...The Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Fairly long and elaborate texts especially the Mahabharata.

There are also the stories of Krishna and his childhood.

[SweetPea]

Not getting this:

Because they are incapable of thinking outside of their own box Steven. SweetPea can (but she is not a 'non-believer'). .....

..... in connection with this...

"Why are most of the non-believers on this forum so unpleasant and obsessively sarcastic?" from Steve

 

Ah well...

[SweetPea]

In an effort to get back on track....

'Energy' .... which is the base of everything.... where did it come from?

[Sriram]

You explain Hinduism eloquently Sririam. There's great beauty & poetry in it, don't know why others can't see that.

I love the story of Durga:- https://www.thoughtco.com/goddess-durga-1770363
which was told to me a couple of years ago by an actress called Durga; I was almost transported into a different world when she told the story.
(You will laugh when I tell you that afterwards my husband described it as Greek mythology  . Bless him, but he did enjoy the narrative.)

Ippy don't get bogged down with Ganesh; Sririam has explained that particular deity.
Instead - rejoice for Anne whom I only found out about recently, would love to see her:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31_LJu9758

We all need beauty in our lives & you were rude about Hinduism which was not forced upon you by sririam. I'dhate the only real Hindu on this forum to back off.The artwork may not be to your taste (ie not like the Jackson Pollacks your rich neighbours have on their walls), but is spectacular nonetheless.

There's room for, if not all, most of us.

Robbie

About your post...I rarely try to talk about Hinduism here.  Hinduism is too vast and complex to be explained  easily and I know it would be very difficult for people here to understand it.

On most occasions what I try to discuss here is only secular spirituality and the gaps in scientific knowledge. Not connected with Hinduism at all.  Some people like ippy prefer to rack up Hinduism completely out of context because they find it easy to throw stones at....

If you want a quick synopsis on Hinduism here it is....

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/hinduismaaaa/

What I have pointed out on this thread is about Intelligence being responsible for the evolution of several man made products, some of which (robots) have evolved to become Intelligent too. So, merely because there is evidence for evolution does not mean Intelligent intervention is automatically ruled out.
 

[Sebastian Toe]

In an effort to get back on track....

'Energy' .... which is the base of everything.... where did it come from?

Are you asking because you don't know or because you do know but want to see alternate explanatons?

[torridon]

In an effort to get back on track....

'Energy' .... which is the base of everything.... where did it come from?

Maybe it didn't come from anywhere.  If it did come from somewhere, we would just ask, how did it get there in the first place ?

[Robbie]

Sorry Sweet Pea my post was clumsy. Your post 63 showed me you think outside your little box which I noted in my response to Stephen H but then I thought, "She's not a non-believer". I apologise for being less than clear, since I came back from hol on Saturday I've been dozy, even thought Trent was NS! Back to work today and back to normal(whatever normal is).

[SweetPea]

That's alright, Robbie.

When I was working, if we had been holidaying abroad, I would usually book an extra day off work just to readjust before returning the following day.

[SweetPea]

Seb #88.... no I don't know where energy comes from and it would be good to hear some explanations.

Torridon #89.... yes, that's interesting that energy may have always been especially, as we know, it cannot be destroyed.
It also brings to mind that Ahayah, God said, “I am Alpha and Omega” and also, “you are made in my image” which I've often wondered could possibly be referring to energy.

I know that comment will cause some cognitive dissonance but it's just an idea. 

[ippy]

You explain Hinduism eloquently Sririam. There's great beauty & poetry in it, don't know why others can't see that.

I love the story of Durga:- https://www.thoughtco.com/goddess-durga-1770363
which was told to me a couple of years ago by an actress called Durga; I was almost transported into a different world when she told the story.
(You will laugh when I tell you that afterwards my husband described it as Greek mythology  . Bless him, but he did enjoy the narrative.)

Ippy don't get bogged down with Ganesh; Sririam has explained that particular deity.
Instead - rejoice for Anne whom I only found out about recently, would love to see her:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31_LJu9758

We all need beauty in our lives & you were rude about Hinduism which was not forced upon you by sririam. I'dhate the only real Hindu on this forum to back off.The artwork may not be to your taste (ie not like the Jackson Pollacks your rich neighbours have on their walls), but is spectacular nonetheless.

There's room for, if not all, most of us.

By the way Rob, I'm not a particular fan of Jackson Pollock, if you remember you didn't quite get it when I was telling you about some seriously rich people there are living in and around Safron Walden  so I gave you an example of just how wealthy these people are that I've completed some work for, I would really like to be in that league but unfortunatly; you or anyone else would need a seriously  bit more than ten bob a week pocket money to be able to buy a Jackson Pollock anything.

Now as for the not so poor old Sriram, don't worry about him too much he hands out plenty that I guess you've missed but I'll give it to him his asides are missed by a lot of the posters on this forum Rob, not just you.

Regards ippy

By the way I'm in Salamanca at the mo, I've just put my feet up after a long days travelling, looking forward to my guided tours of those lovely old church buildings tomorrow, they were built when the religions were able to run as the only show in town, the're a credit to the skill of the craftsmen that built them, what else?

[torridon]

Seb #88.... no I don't know where energy comes from and it would be good to hear some explanations.

Torridon #89.... yes, that's interesting that energy may have always been especially, as we know, it cannot be destroyed.
It also brings to mind that Ahayah, God said, “I am Alpha and Omega” and also, “you are made in my image” which I've often wondered could possibly be referring to energy.

I know that comment will cause some cognitive dissonance but it's just an idea.

I think it is one of those conceptual things that we find near impossible to conceptualise.  Like the infinity of space; or if space is finite, then what lies outside it.  What happened before time started ?  Science has taken us to a point where we have to realise that our common understanding of the most fundamental aspects of reality - space, time, energy, matter, infinity, are all flawed, they are products of our particular intellectual historical development that have boxed us into thinking within particular frames.  To break out to those frames is not easy.

[Sriram]

I think it is one of those conceptual things that we find near impossible to conceptualise.  Like the infinity of space; or if space is finite, then what lies outside it.  What happened before time started ?  Science has taken us to a point where we have to realise that our common understanding of the most fundamental aspects of reality - space, time, energy, matter, infinity, are all flawed, they are products of our particular intellectual historical development that have boxed us into thinking within particular frames.  To break out to those frames is not easy.

Your quote....'they are products of our particular intellectual historical development that have boxed us into thinking within particular frames.'

Yes indeed. And that is the whole point.  To imagine that we actually understand reality is the biggest mistake we make.   And this is a mistake many old school science people tend to make.  That is the way 20th century science developed.

But now, as we dig deeper we realize the inconsistencies and uncertainties of our understanding. The world is not as straight forward and simple as we thought.

I expect you will immediately go to the other extreme and argue that...."'God' and religious beliefs do not explain anything either". I know that!

The whole point of spiritual philosophy is not to explain the nature of the physical world at all....rather, it is meant to redirect our attention away from the external physical world to the more important and more relevant inner world. 

[SteveH]

I think it is one of those conceptual things that we find near impossible to conceptualise.  Like the infinity of space; or if space is finite, then what lies outside it.

The usual formula to describe what cosmologists believe the universe is like is "finite but unbounded". The surface of the earth is as well - you can go anywhere, and keep moving on it for ever, but it is not infinite: it has a definite surface area. The surface is two-dimensional, but bent into a three dimensional sphere. Similarly, the universe is three-dimensional, but bent into a four-dimensional hypersphere.

[Dicky Underpants]

In an effort to get back on track....

'Energy' .... which is the base of everything.... where did it come from?

That's not really getting back on track. That's the abiogenesis question again, or the first cause argument. That can be argued about (and will) till the cows come home.
However, the question is about evolution, which is a phenomenon inferred from various observable data: the fossil record, genetics, and similarity of structures in related living organisms etc etc.

[wigginhall]

Yeah, but why did the cows ever leave home?

[Gordon]

Yeah, but why did the cows ever leave home?

To get to the other side, of course.