Author Topic: Why evolution is true  (Read 41794 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #325 on: August 22, 2018, 09:02:48 PM »
I do know a bit about the optic nerve and visual cortex. Are you saying they are poorly designed too?
No. They weren't designed at all - they evolved through natural selection.

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jeremyp

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #326 on: August 22, 2018, 09:04:26 PM »
Not what I said.
Flying insects first appear with fully formed wings.
Flying bats first appear with fully formed wings.
Flying birds first appear with fully formed wings.
Not true. In all those cases we have transitional forms that had less than fully formed wings.
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SteveH

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #327 on: August 22, 2018, 10:34:53 PM »
Not true. In all those cases we have transitional forms that had less than fully formed wings.
I'll ask you before Mr Potato-head does: examples?
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Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #328 on: August 23, 2018, 01:03:29 PM »
Oh, let's not give up on Spud yet! Since we've been discussing transitional fossils, I'd like to hear his pearls of wisdom about Tiktaalik. It is particularly significant that this fossil was found in the very type of geological strata and global location that one would have expected such a creature to be found, and I think that can't be just coincidence.
I've had a brief look at Tiktaalik but haven't consulted much in the way of creationist sources. Yes it looks like a transition at first (comparing it with lobe-finned fish and tetrapods). One possibility is that it's a mosaic, a bit like the platypus which has reptilian and mammalian traits. Will read more when I get time.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:38:20 AM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #329 on: August 23, 2018, 01:39:38 PM »
I've had a brief look at Tiktaalik but haven't consulted much in the way of creationist sources.

Best not.

Quote
Yes it looks like a transition at first (comparing it with lobe-finned fish and tetrapods that weren't fully capable of walking on land). One possibility is that it's a mosaic, a bit like the platypus which has reptilian and mammalian traits. Will read more when I get time.

Try not to just read creationist sources though.

Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #330 on: August 23, 2018, 08:58:08 PM »
Best not.

Try not to just read creationist sources though.

I've found out several things. First, the pectoral fin of Tiktaalik (dated 375 my) contains "radials" from which it is supposed that the digit bones of amphibians such as Acanthostega (dated 365 my) were derived. However, Tiktaalik's radials are flatter than the round digits of Acanthostega and much less "fingerlike". One wonders if this transition could realistically occur.

The lobe-finned Panderichthys (dated before Tiktaalik at 380 my) also has radials (see: https://tinyurl.com/yauau6vm).

Further, the ulnare bones in the pectoral limb in the above three species are of different size but do not form a smooth progression. Based on the Pectoral fins, a progression from Tiktaalik -> Panderichthys -> Acanthostega looks more natural.

I am not sure if this information is completely up to date, will continue to check it.

Edit: have found out that in 2014 the pelvis and part of a rear fin were finally described. The pelvis is large, suggesting that the rear fins were strong like the pectoral fins. However, it is thought that the fins wouldn't have been able to support the animal out of water.

Have also found out that tetrapods were walking around before Tiktaalik lived (according to conventional dating):

https://www.activeme.ie/guides/tetrapod-fossilised-tracks-valentia-island-kerry/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773519/
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 03:44:26 AM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #331 on: August 24, 2018, 05:47:25 AM »
Keep up the studying and questioning Spud. Look at as many sources as you can. I won't attempt to address any of your 'issues' since I am not qualified in the field of evolutionary biology and do not work in the field, and have never claimed to be an expert. I understand there are debates within the scientific community on this as with most things, which is how it should be. The vast consensus within the scientific community in areas relevant to evolutionary biology is that evolution by natural selection has a huge amount of supporting evidence and that Tiktaalik is an important transitional fossil. Bare that in mind during your studies and try not to view the debates among scientists on specific details as indicating fundamental doubts about the validity of the ToE by Natural Selection.

Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #332 on: August 30, 2018, 05:51:30 PM »
I've been studying the various Australopithecus species, and found that like Tiktaalik, these are also predated: by the Laetoli footprints, made by humans.

Also of interest is that the Pygmy chimpanzee (bonobo) has a foramen magnum that is more centrally positioned than in other primates, similar to Australopithecines: see the photo half-way down on this page:

http://www.macroevolution.net/hybrid-hypothesis-section-3.htm

Again,

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbuiy1XNmYvKQQg9O6KjB6g7VwygAkeRT6MEfG70B6iIeeNpS0sA

Compare with the Australopithecus on this page:
http://www.fcnym.unlp.edu.ar/museo/educativa/serypertenecer/principal/australopitecinos.html

Maeght

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #333 on: August 30, 2018, 05:57:37 PM »
Keep the studying going.

jeremyp

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #334 on: August 30, 2018, 08:04:38 PM »
Keep the studying going.
The problem is that his studies are almost entirely from creationist sites.
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Maeght

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #335 on: August 30, 2018, 08:30:38 PM »
The problem is that his studies are almost entirely from creationist sites.

Yeah, I have advised against that in the past. I'm hoping the studying will extend beyond those though. How about it Spud?

Enki

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #336 on: August 31, 2018, 12:30:37 PM »
From Spud's post 332:

Quote
I've been studying the various Australopithecus species, and found that like Tiktaalik, these are also predated: by the Laetoli footprints, made by humans.

Or, to put it more accurately:

1) The footprints were made by a species of hominins circa 3.7 million years ago.

2) Hominins includes australopithecus species as well as homo species

3) The footprints were  most likely made by Australopithecus afarensis, whose fossils were found in the same sediment layer.
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Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #337 on: August 31, 2018, 02:47:07 PM »
Yeah, I have advised against that in the past. I'm hoping the studying will extend beyond those though. How about it Spud?
Having been taught evolution first, yes I am keen to check out the evidence for it.

Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #338 on: August 31, 2018, 02:48:31 PM »
From Spud's post 332:

Or, to put it more accurately:

1) The footprints were made by a species of hominins circa 3.7 million years ago.

2) Hominins includes australopithecus species as well as homo species

3) The footprints were  most likely made by Australopithecus afarensis, whose fossils were found in the same sediment layer.

At the moment though, exactly how this species walked, and whether its footprints would be like those fossil tracks, is not known.

Maeght

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #339 on: August 31, 2018, 04:42:33 PM »
Having been taught evolution first, yes I am keen to check out the evidence for it.

By looking at sites other than creationist ones?

Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #340 on: September 08, 2018, 09:11:33 PM »
By looking at sites other than creationist ones?

Of course.

In 2011 a single foot bone, a fourth metatarsal, which is dated at 3 million years old, was found. Initially it was thought that it proves australopithecines had human-like foot arches. But a subsequent study in 2012 suggested the bone was more like that of a gorilla:

Title
"The AL 333-160 fourth metatarsal from Hadar compared to that of humans, great apes, baboons and proboscis monkeys: non-conclusive evidence for pedal arches or obligate bipedality in Hadar hominins."

Abstract
"Based on comparisons to non-statistically representative samples of humans and two great ape species (i.e. common chimpanzees Pan troglodytes and lowland gorillas Gorilla gorilla), Ward et al. (2011) concluded that a complete hominin fourth metatarsal (4th MT) from Hadar, AL 333-160, belonged to a committed terrestrial biped with fixed transverse and longitudinal pedal arches, which was no longer under selection favoring substantial arboreal behaviors. According to Ward et al., the Hadar 4th MT had (1) a torsion value indicating a transverse arch, (2) sagittal plane angles between the diaphyseal long axis and the planes of the articular surfaces indicating a longitudinal arch, and (3) a narrow mediolateral to dorsoplantar base ratio, an ectocuneiform facet, and tarsal articular surface contours all indicating a rigid foot without an ape-like mid-tarsal break. Comparisons of the Hadar 4th MT characters to those of statistically representative samples of humans, all five great ape species, baboons and proboscis monkeys show that none of the correlations Ward et al. make to localized foot function were supported by this analysis. The Hadar 4th MT characters are common to catarrhines that have a midtarsal break and lack fixed transverse or longitudinal arches. Further comparison of the AL 333-160 4th MT length, and base, midshaft and head circumferences to those of catarrhines with field collected body weights show that this bone is uniquely short with a large base. Its length suggests the AL 333-160 individual was a poor leaper with limited arboreal behaviors and lacked a longitudinal arch, i.e. its 4th MT long axis was usually held perpendicular to gravity. Its large base implies cuboid-4th MT joint mobility. A relatively short 4th MT head circumference indicates AL 333-160 had small proximal phalanges with a restricted range of mobility. Overall, AL 333-160 is most similar to the 4th MT of eastern gorillas, a slow moving quadruped that sacrifices arboreal behaviors for terrestrial ones. This study highlights evolutionary misconceptions underlying the practice of using localized anatomy and/or a single bony element to reconstruct overall locomotor behaviors and of summarizing great ape structure and behavior based on non-statistically representative samples of only a few living great ape species."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22995931 (emphasis mine)

So far I have concluded that the traits in Australopithecus identified as evidence of transition from non-bipedal to fully bipedal locomotion are actually better described as variations on the morphology of chimpanzees. So for example the calcaneus of DIK-1-1f is quite similar to that of a chimpanzee:

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/7/eaar7723/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Also the iliac bones of the pelvis do not flare as far forward as human ilia, but are chimp-like in orientation and size. The high Q-angle of the Au. femur could just be an adaptation for walking along tree branches. They also have chimp-like shoulder blades.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 09:20:04 PM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #341 on: September 09, 2018, 03:54:51 PM »
Of course.

In 2011 a single foot bone, a fourth metatarsal, which is dated at 3 million years old, was found. Initially it was thought that it proves australopithecines had human-like foot arches. But a subsequent study in 2012 suggested the bone was more like that of a gorilla:

Title
"The AL 333-160 fourth metatarsal from Hadar compared to that of humans, great apes, baboons and proboscis monkeys: non-conclusive evidence for pedal arches or obligate bipedality in Hadar hominins."

Abstract
"Based on comparisons to non-statistically representative samples of humans and two great ape species (i.e. common chimpanzees Pan troglodytes and lowland gorillas Gorilla gorilla), Ward et al. (2011) concluded that a complete hominin fourth metatarsal (4th MT) from Hadar, AL 333-160, belonged to a committed terrestrial biped with fixed transverse and longitudinal pedal arches, which was no longer under selection favoring substantial arboreal behaviors. According to Ward et al., the Hadar 4th MT had (1) a torsion value indicating a transverse arch, (2) sagittal plane angles between the diaphyseal long axis and the planes of the articular surfaces indicating a longitudinal arch, and (3) a narrow mediolateral to dorsoplantar base ratio, an ectocuneiform facet, and tarsal articular surface contours all indicating a rigid foot without an ape-like mid-tarsal break. Comparisons of the Hadar 4th MT characters to those of statistically representative samples of humans, all five great ape species, baboons and proboscis monkeys show that none of the correlations Ward et al. make to localized foot function were supported by this analysis. The Hadar 4th MT characters are common to catarrhines that have a midtarsal break and lack fixed transverse or longitudinal arches. Further comparison of the AL 333-160 4th MT length, and base, midshaft and head circumferences to those of catarrhines with field collected body weights show that this bone is uniquely short with a large base. Its length suggests the AL 333-160 individual was a poor leaper with limited arboreal behaviors and lacked a longitudinal arch, i.e. its 4th MT long axis was usually held perpendicular to gravity. Its large base implies cuboid-4th MT joint mobility. A relatively short 4th MT head circumference indicates AL 333-160 had small proximal phalanges with a restricted range of mobility. Overall, AL 333-160 is most similar to the 4th MT of eastern gorillas, a slow moving quadruped that sacrifices arboreal behaviors for terrestrial ones. This study highlights evolutionary misconceptions underlying the practice of using localized anatomy and/or a single bony element to reconstruct overall locomotor behaviors and of summarizing great ape structure and behavior based on non-statistically representative samples of only a few living great ape species."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22995931 (emphasis mine)

So far I have concluded that the traits in Australopithecus identified as evidence of transition from non-bipedal to fully bipedal locomotion are actually better described as variations on the morphology of chimpanzees. So for example the calcaneus of DIK-1-1f is quite similar to that of a chimpanzee:

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/7/eaar7723/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Also the iliac bones of the pelvis do not flare as far forward as human ilia, but are chimp-like in orientation and size. The high Q-angle of the Au. femur could just be an adaptation for walking along tree branches. They also have chimp-like shoulder blades.

Smashing: you've been doing some background reading, and your point is?

Spud

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #342 on: September 09, 2018, 10:19:56 PM »
Smashing: you've been doing some background reading, and your point is?
I was saying that australopithecines were not committed terrestrial bipeds but chimpanzee-like animals. I might edit this, however, and say that that they seem to be mozaics, in that they have a mixture of traits (one of which may have been the ability to walk upright more effectively than modern apes) that we wouldn't expect to find together: some aspects of their skeletal structure being more like extant apes, others more like humans. They must have been adapted for a unique way of life. The question is whether they are related to other apes and humans. If we look at another mosaic, the platypus, we have to push the time of the last common ancestor with reptiles to before placentas evolved. It's then necessary to see if the fossil record agrees with this. With the platypus, as far as I know there is no transitional fossil between it and reptiles.
So we have a mosaic with ape and human traits. If they are related we should find a last common ancestor. Watch this space?

jeremyp

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #343 on: September 10, 2018, 08:48:43 PM »
I was saying that australopithecines were not committed terrestrial bipeds but chimpanzee-like animals. I might edit this, however, and say that that they seem to be mozaics, in that they have a mixture of traits (one of which may have been the ability to walk upright more effectively than modern apes) that we wouldn't expect to find together: some aspects of their skeletal structure being more like extant apes, others more like humans. They must have been adapted for a unique way of life. The question is whether they are related to other apes and humans. If we look at another mosaic, the platypus, we have to push the time of the last common ancestor with reptiles to before placentas evolved. It's then necessary to see if the fossil record agrees with this. With the platypus, as far as I know there is no transitional fossil between it and reptiles.
So we have a mosaic with ape and human traits. If they are related we should find a last common ancestor. Watch this space?
Humans are apes. Your hypothesis makes no sense. If you really meant a mosaic between humans and chimpanzees, it makes a a bit more sense, but given that humans and chimpanzees only diverged about 6 million years ago, it’s not entirely unexpected that an ancestor of ours that lived 4 million years ago would have a bit more in common with chimps than we do.
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SweetPea

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #344 on: September 10, 2018, 11:06:37 PM »
Humans are apes. Your hypothesis makes no sense. If you really meant a mosaic between humans and chimpanzees, it makes a a bit more sense, but given that humans and chimpanzees only diverged about 6 million years ago, it’s not entirely unexpected that an ancestor of ours that lived 4 million years ago would have a bit more in common with chimps than we do.

Humans are not apes.... smh. You going to tell your children their great, great+ grandparents were apes.... seriously?!

Stop for a moment.... and think how silly that is.... somethin' ain't right..
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SteveH

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #345 on: September 10, 2018, 11:25:11 PM »
Dicky Dawkins has a thought-experiment in one of his books. Imagine a woman standing on the beach at Brighton, sideways on to the sea, which is on her right. Her left hand is holding the right hand of her mother, whose left hand is holding the right hand of hermother, and so on, all the way up to the Scottish border, where the remote ancester of the woman on the beach is holding in her left hand, not the right hand of her mother, but that of her sister, who is holding in her left hand the right hand of her daughter, and so on all the way back down to Brighton beach, where the woman we started from is standing face to face with a chimpanzee.
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Gordon

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #346 on: September 11, 2018, 06:48:48 AM »
Humans are not apes.... smh. You going to tell your children their great, great+ grandparents were apes.... seriously?!

Stop for a moment.... and think how silly that is.... somethin' ain't right..

Humans are apes: get over it.

Quote
The Hominidae (/hɒˈmɪnɪdiː/), whose members are known as great apes[note 1] or hominids, are a taxonomic family of primates that includes eight extant species in four genera: Pongo, the Bornean, Sumatran and Tapanuli orangutan; Gorilla, the eastern and western gorilla; Pan, the common chimpanzee and the bonobo; and Homo, which includes modern humans and its extinct relatives (e.g., the Neanderthal), and ancestors, such as Homo erectus.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

Maeght

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #347 on: September 11, 2018, 07:54:00 AM »
Humans are not apes.... smh. You going to tell your children their great, great+ grandparents were apes.... seriously?!

Stop for a moment.... and think how silly that is.... somethin' ain't right..

Humans are apes. Your personal incredulity doesn't change that fact.

Udayana

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #348 on: September 11, 2018, 11:25:54 AM »
Humans are apes. Your personal incredulity doesn't change that fact.

Humans are apes: get over it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

Are you sure you are not confusing 'facts' with the naming conventions in a classification system?
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Gordon

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Re: Why evolution is true
« Reply #349 on: September 11, 2018, 11:43:44 AM »
Are you sure you are not confusing 'facts' with the naming conventions in a classification system?

I think it is more the case that the names used in the classification system reflect the underlying 'facts' where Taxonomy involves methods that take into account the likes of shared characteristics, and no doubt these days DNA analysis.