Author Topic: Humanist UK patron in the wrong  (Read 5627 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2018, 02:01:52 AM »
Jeremy,

Well, that's a personal matter between him and his daughter I guess.
Not anymore. He's talked about it with a journalist on the Internet.

Quote
The journo who wrote the (sympathetic) piece suggests some potentially persuasive reasons for it though
What are they? I didn't see any.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2018, 10:12:12 AM »
The reasons are there. I’m not sure what any of it has to do with him being a humanist though.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2018, 10:35:26 AM »
Hi Rhi,

1. Yes they are

2. Absolutely nothing
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jeremyp

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2018, 03:13:18 AM »
The reasons are there.
What are they?

There's no reason whatsoever for anybody to lie to their child about whether women were involved in combat in World War 2.

Quote
I’m not sure what any of it has to do with him being a humanist though.
Nothing whatsoever. In fact, I didn't know he was one until Vlad started this thread.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2018, 09:54:31 AM »
What are they?

There's no reason whatsoever for anybody to lie to their child about whether women were involved in combat in World War 2.
Nothing whatsoever. In fact, I didn't know he was one until Vlad started this thread.

He found it hard to explain why in the photos the men were ‘rampaging’ and ‘having a great time’ in combat while the women were dressed in big frocks looking bored. Rather than explain about gender inequality in the past, he decided to pretend women took part in combat too and created some fake role models for her so that she will feels it’s ok for girls to ‘rampage’ as well.

I didn’t say that his reasons are good. I find it utterly bizarre that he should think he can fister a love of history by lying about it, and that’s without his glorification of war. I always thought that war historians were the ones most aware of the suffering that it causes.

jeremyp

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2018, 11:20:39 AM »
He found it hard to explain why in the photos the men were ‘rampaging’ and ‘having a great time’ in combat while the women were dressed in big frocks looking bored. Rather than explain about gender inequality in the past, he decided to pretend women took part in combat too and created some fake role models for her so that she will feels it’s ok for girls to ‘rampage’ as well.
He could always point out that, whilst the men might have been "rampaging" they were hardly having a great time. He could also point out that whilst women were not allowed in front line units, they did fly planes during the war and it was still a dangerous job.

His daughter is probably already aware that boys and girls get treated differently. You only have to walk into Toys R Us (well, you only had to walk in) to realise that. Here was a great opportunity to explain the inherent unfairness of our society towards women and to instil the idea that his daughter doesn't have to like that or accept it for herself, but instead he pretended that everything is fine and lied about the subject he loves to boot.

Quote
I didn’t say that his reasons are good. I find it utterly bizarre that he should think he can fister a love of history by lying about it, and that’s without his glorification of war. I always thought that war historians were the ones most aware of the suffering that it causes.
OK we are probably closer in our opinions on this subject than I thought.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2018, 11:26:10 AM »
I agree with you completely. He actually had a good opportunity to teach his daughter all kinds of things. He didn’t. I find it very weird, but I guess it’ll give her one of those opportunities that we all have to face at some point - learning that our parents can be complete idiots sometimes.

jeremyp

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2018, 11:39:04 AM »
I agree with you completely. He actually had a good opportunity to teach his daughter all kinds of things. He didn’t. I find it very weird, but I guess it’ll give her one of those opportunities that we all have to face at some point - learning that our parents can be complete idiots sometimes.

OK here's the other side of the coin. When my nephew was about six or seven, just before Christmas, he said to me that he thought Father Christmas "might actually be Daddy". Should I have confirmed his suspicions? What I actually did was suggest that if he was right and he confronted his parents with the awful truth, the presents might stop. Looking back on it, that seems morally questionable.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2018, 11:56:44 AM »
OK here's the other side of the coin. When my nephew was about six or seven, just before Christmas, he said to me that he thought Father Christmas "might actually be Daddy". Should I have confirmed his suspicions? What I actually did was suggest that if he was right and he confronted his parents with the awful truth, the presents might stop. Looking back on it, that seems morally questionable.

Well that’s because we set ourselves up with the Father Christmas bollocks in the first place. Two of my kids figured out that it was a lie (the youngest one the earliest) but I had to tell my child with Aspergers. I don’t blame you for what you said; you were put on the spot and actually it made me laugh. FWIW I think the best response is ‘ask your dad’. Then it’s up to the parents to either fess up or keep the charade going.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2018, 12:23:18 PM »
He found it hard to explain why in the photos the men were ‘rampaging’ and ‘having a great time’ in combat while the women were dressed in big frocks looking bored. Rather than explain about gender inequality in the past, he decided to pretend women took part in combat too and created some fake role models for her so that she will feels it’s ok for girls to ‘rampage’ as well.

I didn’t say that his reasons are good. I find it utterly bizarre that he should think he can fister a love of history by lying about it, and that’s without his glorification of war. I always thought that war historians were the ones most aware of the suffering that it causes.
I don't think his reasons were good either - there are British female combat pilots now so he could have mentioned how they might never have had that opportunity today if it wasn't for women proving themselves capable in other technical, risky or dangerous activities during the war.   

I think suffering is often a necessary component of heroism and societies tend to glorify the 'rampaging' of their war heroes, not just for their victories but also for their suffering and sacrifices. I suppose you have to make it sound dynamic and purposeful if you are going to encourage your daughter to risk rampaging in life rather than live a safe existence.

I tell my daughters they can't expect equal pay to someone else if they don't have the confidence to go after getting equal experience and results - that may involve asking questions, putting in the hours of training, being persistent and confident and demanding in order to get and make the most of opportunities to prove themselves in the role.

Regarding the title of the thread, yes not surprising some Humanist parents teach their children certain beliefs because they want them to adopt certain values, outlooks and perspectives. IMO parenting often involves teaching beliefs, ideals and aspirations.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2018, 12:44:25 PM »
Rhi,

Quote
Well that’s because we set ourselves up with the Father Christmas bollocks in the first place. Two of my kids figured out that it was a lie...

Excuse me?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2018, 01:24:48 PM »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2018, 01:33:48 PM »
Rhi,

Quote
Erm... ask a grown-up.

And jeopardise receiving some lovely presents next Christmas?

No thanks - I'm taking no chances.
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Owlswing

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2018, 02:23:07 AM »

There's no reason whatsoever for anybody to lie to their child . . .


Are you sure that you have never lied to youir child(ren)?

No Father Christmas, no Tooth Fairy, etc

If you can, with 100% honesty, say that you have not you are a father in billions!

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2018, 04:59:17 AM »
Are you sure that you have never lied to youir child(ren)?

No Father Christmas, no Tooth Fairy, etc

If you can, with 100% honesty, say that you have not you are a father in billions!
Why edit Jeremy's post to misrepresent what was written?

jeremyp

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2018, 01:09:51 PM »
Well that’s because we set ourselves up with the Father Christmas bollocks in the first place. Two of my kids figured out that it was a lie (the youngest one the earliest) but I had to tell my child with Aspergers. I don’t blame you for what you said; you were put on the spot and actually it made me laugh. FWIW I think the best response is ‘ask your dad’. Then it’s up to the parents to either fess up or keep the charade going.
The morally questionable bit, was using the fact that I was not asked a direct question to deflect and also suggesting a course of action that involved being less than honest with his parents. At the time, I thought nothing of it mainly because I did exactly the same thing when I first worked out that Father Christmas does not exist.
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jeremyp

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2018, 01:13:38 PM »
you are a father in billions!
Thank you

Oh look, I've quote mined your post to make it look like you are complimenting my parenting skills.
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Owlswing

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2018, 01:42:54 AM »

 Why edit Jeremy's post to misrepresent what was written?


I don't consoder trhat I did - and your type of pedantry is one of the reasons I hardly ever post anymore.

Definitionj  "Your type of pedantry" = trying to make someone else look less than you in almost all respects!

You don't see it that way? Of course you don't as you're never on the receiving end.

I have, I think, admitted elsewhere on this Forum that I am not as smart as you, there are reasons for this which I do not wish to divulge, but it does grate sometimes, not always, to be reminded of this particular deficiency.

When it comes down to it who really gives a shit? Abouit, I would think, as many as think that posting a rebuttal of Vlad's neverending losds of old bollocks is going to stop him continuing to do so.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2018, 10:00:00 AM »
I don't consoder trhat I did - and your type of pedantry is one of the reasons I hardly ever post anymore.

Definitionj  "Your type of pedantry" = trying to make someone else look less than you in almost all respects!

You don't see it that way? Of course you don't as you're never on the receiving end.

I have, I think, admitted elsewhere on this Forum that I am not as smart as you, there are reasons for this which I do not wish to divulge, but it does grate sometimes, not always, to be reminded of this particular deficiency.

When it comes down to it who really gives a shit? Abouit, I would think, as many as think that posting a rebuttal of Vlad's neverending losds of old bollocks is going to stop him continuing to do so.
I agree with you Owlswing. I also find NS's pedantry frustrating too, and it detracts from the flow of argument and discussion on the thread.

For the record I think your comment was entirely appropriate and its meaning was clear (or certainly was to me). As far as I could see you were challenging JP on two related grounds. The first being whether he only thought lying to children was wrong in the case of women spitfire pilots, or in all cases, in which case Father Christmas/Tooth fairy etc is off limits. And secondly if only about women pilots but not Father Christmas etc, how that is justifiable - surely lying is either entirely wrong or allowable in certain circumstances.

But there is a broader point here - we give information to children in an age appropriate way and also in a manner that supports their development and aspirations. Sometimes that means we give a simplified version of the 'truth', which may not be entirely correct (indeed elements of it may be considered to be lying). But that is because the child does not have the developmental capacity, nor is it helpful to development, to try to explain things beyond the level of understanding. As children get older we give more sophisticated versions which might not entirely align with what they were told when younger. But this is because they are now able to understand matters in a more sophisticated manner.

So on this topic, if a very young girl is in a museum looking at a spitfire and photos of spitfire pilots and asks why they are all men (i.e. why none like me) I see nothing wrong with telling her that in fact their were women pilots (that they were in auxiliary rather than combat roles is likely to be beyond the understanding of that child, and actually not valuable). So the message is that, yes girls can aspire to be pilots. Later, when she is older the more sophisticated story, can be discussed as she will be old enough to understand the more nuanced story, that yes women can be pilots (and there are role models down the years) but in the past women were not permitted to fulfil all roles, both as pilots and in many other professions. And that over time we have worked to eliminate that direct discrimination. The final and most sophisticated story is that although we have eradicated (and made unlawful) direct discrimination, all sorts of discriminatory behaviours still exist (glass ceilings etc) and that more needs to be done.

But to allow a very young girl looking at a spitfire in a museum to feel she can aspire to fly it (something that at her age she probable feels to be heroic and exciting, rather than how she might feel about war when she is older) and not feel that flying spitfires is for boys and not girls, is frankly, a good thing. And if that requires a little white lie, or merely not telling the whole story, then so be it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2018, 12:42:34 PM »
ProfD, it is perfectly possible to explain to a girl of five, six or seven that back in the day women could fly planes but not in combat, but these days they can fly in combat too, and they will understand it. No point in sugarcoating how the past was for women as in the present they will still have a fight, as Gabriella says.


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2018, 01:25:49 PM »
ProfD, it is perfectly possible to explain to a girl of five, six or seven that back in the day women could fly planes but not in combat, but these days they can fly in combat too, and they will understand it. No point in sugarcoating how the past was for women as in the present they will still have a fight, as Gabriella says.
It is possible, but not necessary.

I actually listened to the pod cast and what Dan Snow says is more nuanced. He doesn't not say or claim that they flew in combat. All he said was that his daughter asked why all the pictures of spitfire pilots were 'boys' and he pulled up some photos on his phone that showed that women were also spitfire pilots - I don't think the issue of combat was raised. So at worst he is guilty of omission, rather than overt lying. Indeed he suggests that maybe he 'kind of lied' rather than that he actually lied.

Rhiannon

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 01:45:22 PM »
Telling the truth is better than lying and these aren’t complicated ideas that kids won’t understand.  Dan Snow admits to lying to his daughter. That most definitely is unnecessary, in this situation.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 02:03:19 PM »
Telling the truth is better than lying and these aren’t complicated ideas that kids won’t understand.  Dan Snow admits to lying to his daughter. That most definitely is unnecessary, in this situation.
But I'm not clear that the issue of combat was ever part of the discussion - from the pod cast the only point was than his daughter (not sure which one, he has 2 one about 7 the other 4) wanted to know why all the spitfire pilots were 'boys' - to point out that they weren't and that women also flew spitfires isn't actually lying at all - that is the truth. Had his daughter asked why all the combat spitfire pilots were 'boys' then he would have been lying, but my impression is that that wasn't the question.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 02:05:58 PM »
Telling the truth is better than lying and these aren’t complicated ideas that kids won’t understand.
It is possible this was his 4 year old daughter - if so I disagree with you. I think the notion of combat vs non combat and selected roles for women is both beyond developmental understanding and also not relevant to what she was asking. Effectively she wanted to know whether girls could fly spitfires - and the answer is yes they could and yes they did.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Humanist UK patron in the wrong
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 02:18:56 PM »
The roles taken by women in warfare are seriously understated vis women air transporters, The handing out of white feathers during WW1 etc.

And talking about the strange treatment of female history, I found this very interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44210012