Religion in our schools

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad's not in receiving mode today Blue, I don't know when he will be, he thinks he's read my post and doesn't understand whatever bit of it he did read.

He's even more deeply into bollocks mode today than his normal I know it doesn't seem possible, but he is.

Regards ippy

Earlier, Ippy wrote.....

I don't mind answering you Vlad,

and how did he answer?

it's just that if I do answer you, you seem to get into some sort of ginormous muddle with virtually everything that's put before you and it always looks to me as though you deliberately misunderstand whoever it happens to be that's trying their best to communicate with you; you certainly don't communicate English in anything close to the way the most of us do.

In other words he didn't answer me.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vladdo,

In other words he didn't answer me.

Just out of interest, have you ever, ever, ever answered a question that someone has asked you here?

Ever?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

ipster,

Clearly so. The hypocrisy of him insisting I start a thread to make an argument when, to my knowledge, he's never, ever argued for anything (preferring instead to ignore or to lie about the arguments that others make) is beyond irony.

Your lack of justification for your idea that faith schools teach lies speaks for itself.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vladdo,

Just out of interest, have you ever, ever, ever answered a question that someone has asked you here?

Ever?

Yes.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes.

Points

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vladdo,

Your lack of justification for your idea that faith schools teach lies speaks for itself.

Well that was stupid. Explaining what an argument is and justifying that argument are different things.

Surely even you can grasp that can't you?

Can't you?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vladdo,

Yes.

When?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The main atheist organisations BHA and NSS seem simultaneously happy and unhappy with secular state schools.

Unhappy because they object to religion in schools
Happy because secular schools are very nearly the ideal

If the latter is the case then something is wrong, namely the schools are not reflecting the communities they find themselves in or the lives of those communities, rather they represent a narrow type of national secularism.

The BHA and NSS therefore have schools at the expense of taxpayers. Which represents a triumph for a minority.

As I said schools should celebrate and promote their cultural and spiritual context appropriately.

Against such a sensible measure, the BHA and NSS look like an educational dictatorship.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Rather than obfuscating perhaps you'd like to address the main point of my post, namely that for state funded grammar schools, single sex schools and special needs schools there are educational arguments for their existence. While we might not agree with those educational arguments, their existence is justified on the basis of educational benefit. There is no such pedagogical or educational argument for faith schools, which would effectively be suggesting that a christian sitting next to another christian learns better than a christian sitting next to an atheist.

I think schools are more than places of academic education - they are often described as communities with a particular ethos or values, where children are socialised. Previous governments supported faith schools because they wanted to support diversity and parental choice because it seemed to be a vote winner, presumably based on lobbying from parents and interest groups. Parents might have liked the ethos of faith schools at that time.

If it is no longer a vote winner and the majority of parents oppose faith schools, parents should continue to use the democratic process by approaching their MPs to ask questions and debate the issue in Parliament. If the arguments against faith schools are persuasive and there is peer-reviewed evidence that faith schools lead to social intolerance while secular schools do not, presumably it is in the self-interest of political parties to support a change in education policy, if it is popular.

Labour don't seem to have included anything in their election manifesto pledge about abolishing faith schools or grammar schools or withdrawing charitable status from private schools. Labour did say they would add VAT to school fees.

Apparently the Tories claimed in their election manifesto that they would strip private schools of their tax breaks if they refuse to help neighbouring state school but this plan has been shelved - maybe not a vote winner?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vladdo,

The main atheist organisations BHA and NSS seem simultaneously happy and unhappy with secular state schools.

Unhappy because they object to religion in schools
Happy because secular schools are very nearly the ideal

If the latter is the case then something is wrong, namely the schools are not reflecting the communities they find themselves in or the lives of those communities, rather they represent a narrow type of national secularism.

The BHA and NSS therefore have schools at the expense of taxpayers. Which represents a triumph for a minority.

As I said schools should celebrate and promote their cultural and spiritual context appropriately.

Against such a sensible measure, the BHA and NSS look like an educational dictatorship.

Wrong from beginning to end. The NSS and the BHA don't object to "religion in schools" at all. To the contrary they recognise that religions are widespread and significant cultural phenomena and that children should therefore be taught about them. What they actually object to though is the content of religions being taught as facts alongside the facts of biology and geography.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vladdo,

Wrong from beginning to end. The NSS and the BHA don't object to "religion in schools" at all. To the contrary they recognise that religions are widespread and significant cultural phenomena and that children should therefore be taught about them. What they actually object to though is the content of religions being taught as facts alongside the facts of biology and geography.

Do you really expect us to believe that NSS and HUK do not campaign about the religion which is in secular state schools?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vladdo,

Do you really expect us to believe that NSS and HUK do not campaign about the religion which is in secular state schools?

I expect you to believe that they don't "object to religion in schools" at all, which was the misrepresentation you attempted.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vladdo,

I expect you to believe that they don't "object to religion in schools" at all, which was the misrepresentation you attempted.

The only religion they want is the ''about religion'' namely religion on their terms

A taster from the campaigns page of Humanist UK

''schools and education, including ‘faith’ schools, Religious Education, Science including evolution and creationism, PSHE and sex and relationships education, and collective worship;''. The NSS roll call of objections is similar.

Is there then any area or aspect of religion in education that these organisations don't object to?

[ProfessorDavey]

The BHA and NSS therefore have schools at the expense of taxpayers. Which represents a triumph for a minority.

No they don't.

Please provide me with a single example of a state funded school (or even a non state funded school) run by the BHA or NSS in the same manner as state funded faith schools are run by the RCC or CofE (as examples).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No they don't.

Please provide me with a single example of a state funded school (or even a non state funded school) run by the BHA or NSS in the same manner as state funded faith schools are run by the RCC or CofE (as examples).

Wherethese organisations are happy that these schools are running according to their model they have got a school which promotes their belief and for which they merely have to pay taxes as any other citizen while seeking to eliminate religion and introduce mere 'About religion'.

[ippy]

Earlier, Ippy wrote.....

and how did he answer?

In other words he didn't answer me.

I don't know Vlad, the biggest failing of yours is, say I was having some discussion with you about sailing, (I'm not actually writing to you about sailing, this only an example), if you were to answer whatever I said about sailing your answer or answers would probably be something about the average  summer rainfall figures for Patogonia circa the 1922 season.

Which as most people can see, the ones that try to communicate with you, it makes us think to ourselves how do you manage to get through to this bloke? Namely you Vlad?

If you go back to my original post you should have seen the answers to the question was there for you to perceive in the first place, ie, no need for you to have asked me the question, therefore no need for the question.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't know Vlad, the biggest failing of yours is, say I was having some discussion with you about sailing, (I'm not actually writing to you about sailing, this only an example), if you were to answer whatever I said about sailing your answer or answers would probably be something about the average  summer rainfall figures for Patogonia circa the 1922 season.

Which as most people can see, the ones that try to communicate with you, it makes us think to ourselves how do you manage to get through to this bloke? Namely you Vlad?

If you go back to my original post you should have seen the answers to the question was there for you to perceive in the first place, ie, no need for you to have asked me the question, therefore no need for the question.

Regards ippy

Ippy what I want is an explanation as to why when the NSS discuss this they only refer to state funded schools. Presumably then they think that segregation on the grounds of religion is fine as long as it's privately paid for.

Perhaps you can oblige.

Also while we are on the subject of the NSS what is Lawrence Krauss's current status in that organisation? 

[Nearly Sane]

Ippy what I want is an explanation as to why when the NSS discuss this they only refer to state funded schools. Presumably then they think that segregation on the grounds of religion is fine as long as it's privately paid for.

Perhaps you can oblige.

Also while we are on the subject of the NSS what is Lawrence Krauss's current status in that organisation?

Maybe you should ask them and not ippy? And does Dawkins know that you have taken down his poster from your wall and replaced it with your photoshopped poster of a naked Lawrence Krauss hiding his citations under your shite stained shirt?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Maybe you should ask them and not ippy? And does Dawkins know that you have taken down his poster from your wall and replaced it with your photoshopped poster of a naked Lawrence Krauss hiding his citations under your shite stained shirt?

Ippy's a kind of unofficial local agent for the NSS as you seem to be for exploding Nipples.

[Nearly Sane]

Ippy's a kind of unofficial local agent for the NSS as you seem to be for exploding Nipples.

No, it was your nipples that exploded with shite, I couldn't take away the grand achievement of your posting.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, it was your nipples that exploded with shite,

You really couldn't make this sort of thing up.

[Nearly Sane]

You really couldn't make this sort of thing up.

Enjoy yourself, it's shiter than you think

[ProfessorDavey]

Wherethese organisations are happy that these schools are running according to their model they have got a school which promotes their belief and for which they merely have to pay taxes as any other citizen while seeking to eliminate religion and introduce mere 'About religion'.

Wrong - non faith schools no more promote humanism than they promoted catholicism or islam.

And of all our public institutions state funded non faith schools are about as far from being secular as you can get (albeit not as far as the faith schools) - the notion that a school must by law provide daily worship of a broadly christian nature and that that school is secular if completely oxymoronic.

The reality is that there is not a single state funded humanist school in the country, nor is there a single state funded secular school.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Wrong - non faith schools no more promote humanism than they promoted catholicism or islam.

How can they do other since the unwritten understanding behind a secular school is that you don't need God for anything....which is de facto Humanism whether the usual clowns on here loudly agree or not.

That is inescapable.

The NSS and BHA do not celebrate religious identity.

[ippy]

It'll always be a problem to find a way to prevent religionists getting their claws into, as they see it, new recruits, when they consider educating our under seven year old children, I look forward to the day this practice was brought to a full stop, I'm sure there must be a better much more enlightened way to educate these vulnerable young pre seven year old victims.

As for the post seven year old children perhaps it'd be for the best to introduce them to some knowledge about the various religions that are unfortunately still managing to survive and from a personal point of view I would like to see some strict form of enforceable legislation that would prevent all of the religions, being taught as factual matters to any of our children in all of our schools, government funded or otherwise.

Regards ippy