Author Topic: Religion in our schools  (Read 16702 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2018, 01:44:53 PM »
The trouble is the fast forwarding since you are bidding us to consider just two reference points which should be enough to endanger any scientific reputation. However anyone looking at the charts will notice a change of trend in the last ten years.
Sure, but if your thesis were the case you'd expect religiosity to have increased through 1996-2010 (when public spending consistently increased) and then declined from 2010 onwards as austerity kicked in.

But as you rightly pointed out previously religiosity has declined throughout that period, so there is no correlation between the spending and the religiosity. This is more associated with short range political shifts.

However if you take a much longer view - for example from 1900 there is a very clear trend - firstly slow and then more rapid declines in religiosity, and massive increases in healthcare spending (also rather slower at the beginning).

So were you included to assess a correlation between religiosity and public spending per GDP on health there would be a clear inverse trend.

But correlation or association doesn't necessarily equate to causation.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2018, 01:53:05 PM »
Sure, but if your thesis were the case you'd expect religiosity to have increased through 1996-2010 (when public spending consistently increased) and then declined from 2010 onwards as austerity kicked in.

But as you rightly pointed out previously religiosity has declined throughout that period, so there is no correlation between the spending and the religiosity. This is more associated with short range political shifts.

However if you take a much longer view - for example from 1900 there is a very clear trend - firstly slow and then more rapid declines in religiosity, and massive increases in healthcare spending (also rather slower at the beginning).

So were you included to assess a correlation between religiosity and public spending per GDP on health there would be a clear inverse trend.

But correlation or association doesn't necessarily equate to causation.
People are responsible for health spending.
There has been a sharp decline in religion recently.
The trend for health spending is practically and categorically changed for the worse.

ippy

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2018, 02:45:08 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2018, 03:16:15 PM »
Just another link on this subject: https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2018/06/british-public-opposes-religious-influence-in-education-poll-finds

Regards to all, ippy
Good to see the Society talking about World views.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2018, 03:20:40 PM »
People are responsible for health spending.
Only in a rather indirect manner.

There has been a sharp decline in religion recently.
Which has been going on at pretty well the same rate for decades, including the periods 1997-2010 and 2010-present.

The trend for health spending is practically and categorically changed for the worse.
I would agree for the period since 2010. But I would argue (and I think you might agree) that the period from 1997-2010 saw major improvements in health provision, and undoubtedly in health spending.

So you have one measure (health spending and quality of provision) that has bounced up and down depending on the nature of the government while the other measure has consistently declined (religiosity). There is no short range correlation between the two.

However when we look across a much longer range there is a clear correlation - as we have become less religious we have spent more on our GDP on health. Not that that, of course, implies causation.

ippy

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2018, 03:55:23 PM »
Good to see the Society talking about World views.

If you were to bring yourself up to speed on and about secularism you would find that there's nothing unusual about the NSS taking the world view.

Regards ippy.
 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2018, 05:38:50 PM »
However anyone looking at the charts will notice a change of trend in the last ten years.
Which doesn't correlate with a change in trend on religiosity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2018, 06:04:24 PM »
Which doesn't correlate with a change in trend on religiosity.
I think the decline got sharper.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2018, 06:36:24 PM »
I think the decline got sharper.
Clutching at straws.

Now it is highly likely that the government will announce a major uplift in health spending in the next few weeks to coincide with the 70th anniversary of the NHS. So in your bizarre world this must be associated with a corresponding uplift in religiosity in the next few weeks.

Bonkers

ippy

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2018, 12:04:40 AM »
Religionists didn't get their claws into education, they started it and hospitals too.

Another example of Vlad's dishonesty, his reply to my original post in full below:

It'll always be a problem to find a way to prevent religionists getting their claws into, as they see it, new recruits, when they consider educating our under seven year old children, I look forward to the day this practice was brought to a full stop, I'm sure there must be a better much more enlightened way to educate these vulnerable young pre seven year old victims.

As for the post seven year old children perhaps it'd be for the best to introduce them to some knowledge about the various religions that are unfortunately still managing to survive and from a personal point of view I would like to see some strict form of enforceable legislation that would prevent all of the religions, being taught as factual matters to any of our children in all of our schools, government funded or otherwise.

No small wonder you're often accused of lying Vlad.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2018, 12:08:25 AM »
Another example of Vlad's dishonesty, his reply to my original post in full below:

It'll always be a problem to find a way to prevent religionists getting their claws into, as they see it, new recruits, when they consider educating our under seven year old children, I look forward to the day this practice was brought to a full stop, I'm sure there must be a better much more enlightened way to educate these vulnerable young pre seven year old victims.

As for the post seven year old children perhaps it'd be for the best to introduce them to some knowledge about the various religions that are unfortunately still managing to survive and from a personal point of view I would like to see some strict form of enforceable legislation that would prevent all of the religions, being taught as factual matters to any of our children in all of our schools, government funded or otherwise.

No small wonder you're often accused of lying Vlad.

ippy
Not sure what this post is about. Did Hillside ask you to put it up?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2018, 09:13:55 AM »
Another example of Vlad's dishonesty, his reply to my original post in full below:
He is also historically illiterate if he thinks that religionists started education.

ippy

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2018, 11:58:09 AM »
Not sure what this post is about. Did Hillside ask you to put it up?

Even you are not that simple Vlad.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2018, 08:35:38 PM »
He is also historically illiterate if he thinks that religionists started education.
Certainly in this country.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2018, 11:24:08 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #140 on: June 19, 2018, 10:18:52 AM »
Wrong again.
England such as it was was clear of schools before St August inexorably from which there is a straight line of ecclesiastical involvement until comparatively recently.

Secular provision as we know know is not a fixed priority.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #141 on: June 19, 2018, 12:54:53 PM »
England such as it was was clear of schools before St August inexorably from which there is a straight line of ecclesiastical involvement until comparatively recently.

Secular provision as we know know is not a fixed priority.
The level of ignorance is stunning.

What about the provision of schools by the Romans from AD43 to about AD400, which predates St Augustine by hundreds of years.

And, of course, the education and schooling established under the Roman model was much more recognisable in a modern context, in that it was broadly educational, covering a range of subjects, from writing to maths to rhetoric. It wasn't specifically linked to a single vocation and wasn't basically vocational training. The 'education' established by St Augistine and thereafter wasn't education as we know it, it was training for the clergy. There is a difference between education and training.

Indeed broad educational provision (broad in content of course, rather than broad in who benefited) effectively vanished for hundreds of years following the end of the Roman period, really only reappearing in the 12th and 13thC when a series of new schools remerged whose remit was not purely the vocational training of clergy, but broader education for the local community (albeit only those from wealthy backgrounds). While some of those schools were re-purposed cathedral schools, many others were foundations of the civic society of the town or city in which they arose. Indeed quite a few are still in existence.

But the basic point is that the earliest formal educational and schooling in this country predates the arrival of christianity at it was Roman - and the Roman educational model was secular and civic, not religious.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #142 on: June 19, 2018, 12:58:56 PM »
Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us?

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #143 on: June 19, 2018, 04:51:01 PM »
The Celts had their own formal schooling. Just saying.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #144 on: June 19, 2018, 04:53:58 PM »
The Celts had their own formal schooling. Just saying.
As of course did the ancient Greeks, Romans, Chinese etc etc etc. And educating the young has always been part of human society, and of other cognitively advanced social animals.

But as far as Vlad is concerned no-one had invented education until the christians came along.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #145 on: June 19, 2018, 06:20:48 PM »
As of course did the ancient Greeks, Romans, Chinese etc etc etc. And educating the young has always been part of human society, and of other cognitively advanced social animals.

But as far as Vlad is concerned no-one had invented education until the christians came along.
Please explain the role the Greeks and the Chinese had in establishing schools in England.

Any roman system of schools  had died off before Augustine

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2018, 06:22:42 PM »
The Celts had their own formal schooling. Just saying.

Really? Tell us about it.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2018, 06:38:04 PM »
Any roman system of schools  had died off before Augustine
So you accept that there was education and a schooling system in Britain long before christianity hit these shores then.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2018, 06:44:17 PM »
Any roman system of schools  had died off before Augustine
Not true - the Roman culture and society left a legacy way beyond their departure from Britain - indeed we retain elements of our society today that can be traced straight back to those Roman times.

So I suspect that when christianity arrived in Britain they would have adopted all sorts of Roman cultural norms, including in education. Don't forget that the key element of Augustine's 'education' (really vocational training) was learning Latin ... which comes from where exactly.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion in our schools
« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2018, 07:12:55 PM »
Any roman system of schools  had died off before Augustine
Would you like to remind us where Augustine was born, was brought up and educated (and therefore his societal and cultural influences) prior to coming to Britain