Author Topic: Role of Religions  (Read 11812 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2018, 05:49:39 PM »
For football, there are teams, venues, spectators and a ball. No-one really thinks there is a football after-life or something.
Nationalism involves a country and its people, a physical place on the planet. No-one thinks that the planet will answer prayers or that it has instructions and wants.
For politics, there are, again, people, the effects of government. Most of this gets criticised most of the time too!
Religions have gods to which they can attach any random quality, characteristic or supposed instructions. So far, not one shread of objective evidence exists for any god. Yes, there are people involved and what they have in common is a belief that some god/spirit/soul/book-labelled-holy/etc  exists. The books exist, yes, but to think they were written by anything other than human beings is a daft idea. The cop-out qualifier they come up with is that the god'inspired' the words.

You're missing the point. Football is tribal and theres no reason to think that West Ham are worth supporting except the story I tell myself about it - largely because I was indoctrinated to support them as a child. Fandoms are tribal - look at the Star Wars fandom which operates like a faith and within which it is possible to commit heresy. Look at the cult of Corbyn. Nationalism only exits because we have stories about nation states, good guys and bad guys and notions of 'independence' - tribalism.

For whatever reason people do this. If we don't have gods then we have Harry Styles and Lionel Messi. 'Real' doesn't come into it.

And as NS says, you can only not believe if there is something to not believe in.

SusanDoris

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2018, 07:16:37 PM »
This seems like one long non sequitur. If you are an atheist, then religion is surely just part of humanity? And we are neither better nor worse for getting rid of it.
What needs to be got rid of is the belief, the false belief, that there is any kind of god anywhere, any time. Jasper Fforde had the ideal solution in
the Tuesday Next series: everybody knows there isn't a god but they like the system of Sunday services etc so there are Vicars (Tuesday's brother is one of them) and *god* is the GPD - general purpose deity. Everyone knows the truth and the system runs along smoothly.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2018, 07:21:29 PM »
What needs to be got rid of is the belief, the false belief, that there is any kind of god anywhere, any time. Jasper Fforde had the ideal solution in
the Tuesday Next series: everybody knows there isn't a god but they like the system of Sunday services etc so there are Vicars (Tuesday's brother is one of them) and *god* is the GPD - general purpose deity. Everyone knows the truth and the system runs along smoothly.
Why? What difference will it make?

Rhiannon

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2018, 08:57:57 PM »
What needs to be got rid of is the belief, the false belief, that there is any kind of god anywhere, any time. Jasper Fforde had the ideal solution in
the Tuesday Next series: everybody knows there isn't a god but they like the system of Sunday services etc so there are Vicars (Tuesday's brother is one of them) and *god* is the GPD - general purpose deity. Everyone knows the truth and the system runs along smoothly.

But the belief that West Ham are worth supporting is equally false, especially if you are a Millwall fan.

People who don’t like light sci fi don’t like Star Wars. People who are on the Star Wars fandom generally don’t like The Last Jedi and think it’s a heresy for having strong female leads. Is that true?

Sriram

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2018, 04:59:09 AM »


A little off subject....but how does anyone know that there is no God?  No one has even defined God.

One can argue (up to a point) against some specific image of God....like Jehovah or Ganesh or some other.  That there is no God of any kind, cannot be deduced from the nature of this world. 

Some people might argue that... 'the universe follows natural laws, we humans have evolved from animals'...so, there is no God!  Which is a rubbish argument!

Maeght

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2018, 06:24:27 AM »

A little off subject....but how does anyone know that there is no God?  No one has even defined God.

One can argue (up to a point) against some specific image of God....like Jehovah or Ganesh or some other.  That there is no God of any kind, cannot be deduced from the nature of this world. 

Some people might argue that... 'the universe follows natural laws, we humans have evolved from animals'...so, there is no God!  Which is a rubbish argument!

Does anyone say that they know there is no God?

trippymonkey

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2018, 07:24:39 AM »
The implications are VERY clear if not blatantly obvious.

Someone not reading ALL the posts here ?!!?!? ;)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2018, 08:37:27 AM »

A little off subject....but how does anyone know that there is no God?  No one has even defined God.

One can argue (up to a point) against some specific image of God....like Jehovah or Ganesh or some other.  That there is no God of any kind, cannot be deduced from the nature of this world. 

Some people might argue that... 'the universe follows natural laws, we humans have evolved from animals'...so, there is no God!  Which is a rubbish argument!

If there is no definition of something, it's a nonsense question. I've also never seen the argument you have presented.

torridon

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2018, 09:05:31 AM »

A little off subject....but how does anyone know that there is no God?  No one has even defined God.

One can argue (up to a point) against some specific image of God....like Jehovah or Ganesh or some other.  That there is no God of any kind, cannot be deduced from the nature of this world. 

Some people might argue that... 'the universe follows natural laws, we humans have evolved from animals'...so, there is no God!  Which is a rubbish argument!

Maybe we could say that an aspect of any definition of god would be that god is undefinable.  All our definitions and descriptions are human constructs which would therefore necessarily fail to define or describe god.  We cannot verify something which is unverifiable.

Maeght

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2018, 10:04:21 AM »
The implications are VERY clear if not blatantly obvious.

Someone not reading ALL the posts here ?!!?!? ;)

What implications and who isn't reading posts?

ekim

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2018, 10:44:01 AM »
Maybe we could say that an aspect of any definition of god would be that god is undefinable.  All our definitions and descriptions are human constructs which would therefore necessarily fail to define or describe god.  We cannot verify something which is unverifiable.
Yes, the word 'ineffable' is sometimes used in some religions.  However, there appears to be a tendency to project attributes, seen to be desirable, either separately upon a variety of Gods or collectively upon one God e.g. love, power, omniscience, joy, life, etc.  Some seek those attributes or qualities by invoking them, some by evoking them.

ippy

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2018, 12:47:57 PM »

A little off subject....but how does anyone know that there is no God?  No one has even defined God.

One can argue (up to a point) against some specific image of God....like Jehovah or Ganesh or some other.  That there is no God of any kind, cannot be deduced from the nature of this world. 

Some people might argue that... 'the universe follows natural laws, we humans have evolved from animals'...so, there is no God!  Which is a rubbish argument!

Sorry Sriram, just a reminder you're tired or perhaps it's late for you, you've just let yourself fall into the N P F trap.

Kind regards ippy

Sriram

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2018, 08:24:15 AM »
Maybe we could say that an aspect of any definition of god would be that god is undefinable.  All our definitions and descriptions are human constructs which would therefore necessarily fail to define or describe god.  We cannot verify something which is unverifiable.

We can surmise certain things. Verification is not always possible nor necessary.  If we see a plane flying...we can surmise that it has been created by Intelligent intervention.  It is obvious. Similarly, we can also surmise that life has been created by intelligent intervention.  Religions attempted to explain this through mythology.

The problem arose when cosmology, theory of evolution etc. contradicted religious beliefs.  It was thereafter assumed that if the universe functions through natural laws and if human life has evolved through millions of years....then there cannot be any intelligent intervention.

This assumption is clearly wrong as I have argued in another thread. Evolution or the existence of natural  laws do not automatically rule out intelligent intervention.






Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2018, 11:19:31 AM »


The problem arose when cosmology, theory of evolution etc. contradicted religious beliefs.  It was thereafter assumed that if the universe functions through natural laws and if human life has evolved through millions of years....then there cannot be any intelligent intervention.
Hi Sriram

You make it sound like an equal fight

It isn't of course but not in the way New Atheism would have us believe.
We know plenty from them of how stupid fundamentalist creationists are but the true story is perpetuation of science versus religion myth.
Evolution makes atheism intellectually acceptable says Dawkins from the shallow end.
Multiverse eliminates Fine tuning say antitheist cosmologist.....from the shallow end.

Neither evolution or multiverse are a danger to God but multiverse could be a danger to science.

IMHO

Samuel

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2018, 01:06:16 PM »
People who don’t like light sci fi don’t like Star Wars. People who are on the Star Wars fandom generally don’t like The Last Jedi and think it’s a heresy for having strong female leads.

Woah, hey, woah, hey, woah... Off topic a second but...

Speaking as a member of the Star Wars fandom, I can assure you that I, and the vast majority of fans I know, LOVED The Last Jedi. I offer a modified version of your statement for your consideration:

"Some people who are in the Star Wars fandom don’t like The Last Jedi and the particularly thick, insecure, misogynistic dick-heads amongst them think it’s a heresy for having strong female leads"


A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Rhiannon

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2018, 01:23:56 PM »
Woah, hey, woah, hey, woah... Off topic a second but...

Speaking as a member of the Star Wars fandom, I can assure you that I, and the vast majority of fans I know, LOVED The Last Jedi. I offer a modified version of your statement for your consideration:

"Some people who are in the Star Wars fandom don’t like The Last Jedi and the particularly thick, insecure, misogynistic dick-heads amongst them think it’s a heresy for having strong female leads"

Now, you see, I had this discussion with my eldest, and as a die-hard Star Wars fan she loathes the Star Wars fandom with a passion. We've decided we identify with the Star Wars Fans faction and not the Star Wars Fandom, and Rian Johnson is our High Priest.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 03:36:12 PM by Rhiannon »

torridon

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2018, 01:37:17 PM »
We can surmise certain things. Verification is not always possible nor necessary.  If we see a plane flying...we can surmise that it has been created by Intelligent intervention.  It is obvious. Similarly, we can also surmise that life has been created by intelligent intervention.  Religions attempted to explain this through mythology.

The problem arose when cosmology, theory of evolution etc. contradicted religious beliefs.  It was thereafter assumed that if the universe functions through natural laws and if human life has evolved through millions of years....then there cannot be any intelligent intervention.

This assumption is clearly wrong as I have argued in another thread. Evolution or the existence of natural  laws do not automatically rule out intelligent intervention.

'Intelligent Intervention' answers nothing though, it merely shifts the goal posts from 'how did this complex thing arise' to 'how did this intelligent interventionist arise' .  No further forward in understanding really.

Sriram

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2018, 02:02:47 PM »
'Intelligent Intervention' answers nothing though, it merely shifts the goal posts from 'how did this complex thing arise' to 'how did this intelligent interventionist arise' .  No further forward in understanding really.

Maybe. So what?

Not that you have an answer for everything either. The same infinite regress whether with 'God' or with science.


torridon

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2018, 02:53:25 PM »
Maybe. So what?

Not that you have an answer for everything either. The same infinite regress whether with 'God' or with science.

I think the 'intelligent interventionist' argument is popular with some because, on the one hand it seemingly provides handy validation of religious beliefs and on the other it seemingly offers a way out of thinking through difficult philosophical problems.  If we refuse answers that are superficial or appealing then we are more likely to button down and think why things are the way they are without resorting to some sort of 'outside' intervention.  Face the complexity, rather than duck it.

Enki

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2018, 03:24:06 PM »
We can surmise certain things. Verification is not always possible nor necessary.  If we see a plane flying...we can surmise that it has been created by Intelligent intervention.  It is obvious. Similarly, we can also surmise that life has been created by intelligent intervention.  Religions attempted to explain this through mythology.

The problem arose when cosmology, theory of evolution etc. contradicted religious beliefs.  It was thereafter assumed that if the universe functions through natural laws and if human life has evolved through millions of years....then there cannot be any intelligent intervention.

This assumption is clearly wrong as I have argued in another thread. Evolution or the existence of natural  laws do not automatically rule out intelligent intervention.


We can indeed suggest intelligent intervention has created the plane flying, but in the broader sense, we cannot assume so at all, as it is evolution that has created brains which can design aeroplanes, just as it is evolution that created the brains to create spiders' webs. The origin of that evolution is the creation of life and so far we have no complete and satisfactory answer as to how life began. What we can say, however, is that there is no evidence whatever to support the idea that life was created by intelligent intervention. Indeed, even if one 'surmised' that life was created by intelligent intervention, one would also have to surmise that the origin of this intervention had a particularly imperfect intelligence, and the whole idea would quickly become impossibly complicated.
Yes, problems arose when scientific understanding contradicted some religious beliefs, but that was mainly a problem for those holding such contradictory beliefs. There is no assumption that there cannot be any intelligent intervention, only that there is no evidence whatever for such intelligent intervention and therefore science has no obligation to pursue this line of thought unless or until evidence is forthcoming. Furthermore, evolution doesn't need the input of any intelligent designer as an explanation at all. It works perfectly well without one(or more than one).

This, of course, is a long way from saying 'there cannot be any intelligent intervention' as you quite rightly say, although I would have thought that this is purely conjectural and belongs in the realms of religious and spiritual thought, rather than science, for the reasons given above.

 
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Sriram

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2018, 04:15:10 PM »

We can indeed suggest intelligent intervention has created the plane flying, but in the broader sense, we cannot assume so at all, as it is evolution that has created brains which can design aeroplanes, just as it is evolution that created the brains to create spiders' webs. The origin of that evolution is the creation of life and so far we have no complete and satisfactory answer as to how life began. What we can say, however, is that there is no evidence whatever to support the idea that life was created by intelligent intervention. Indeed, even if one 'surmised' that life was created by intelligent intervention, one would also have to surmise that the origin of this intervention had a particularly imperfect intelligence, and the whole idea would quickly become impossibly complicated.
Yes, problems arose when scientific understanding contradicted some religious beliefs, but that was mainly a problem for those holding such contradictory beliefs. There is no assumption that there cannot be any intelligent intervention, only that there is no evidence whatever for such intelligent intervention and therefore science has no obligation to pursue this line of thought unless or until evidence is forthcoming. Furthermore, evolution doesn't need the input of any intelligent designer as an explanation at all. It works perfectly well without one(or more than one).

This, of course, is a long way from saying 'there cannot be any intelligent intervention' as you quite rightly say, although I would have thought that this is purely conjectural and belongs in the realms of religious and spiritual thought, rather than science, for the reasons given above.

 

I agree with some of your points.

As far as planes are concerned, they have also evolved from very basic models. The computer that drives them has also evolved. But they are all products of human intelligence nevertheless.

Extending this logic, we can surmise that we and our brains have also evolved through intelligent intervention.  Emergent properties and complexity can be explained only that way and not through random variation.

Maeght

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2018, 04:19:46 PM »
You can surmise of course, but by definition that means there is no evidence for it.

Enki

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2018, 05:50:04 PM »
I agree with some of your points.

As far as planes are concerned, they have also evolved from very basic models. The computer that drives them has also evolved. But they are all products of human intelligence nevertheless.

Extending this logic, we can surmise that we and our brains have also evolved through intelligent intervention.  Emergent properties and complexity can be explained only that way and not through random variation.

As Maeght has suggested, you can surmise all you wish, but the fact that all changes and improvements to such things as computers and planes are totally dependent on an outside agency flies in the face of evolutionary theory and practice, where the basic principle of the evolution of living things by natural selection is well understood, well evidenced and needs no outside agency at all for this process to take place.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 05:52:12 PM by enki »
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NicholasMarks

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2018, 06:07:09 PM »
I agree with some of your points.

As far as planes are concerned, they have also evolved from very basic models. The computer that drives them has also evolved. But they are all products of human intelligence nevertheless.

Extending this logic, we can surmise that we and our brains have also evolved through intelligent intervention.  Emergent properties and complexity can be explained only that way and not through random variation.

I'll let you into a little secret Sriram...Almighty God is the owner of the science of evolution. It too relies upon behaviour patterns intermingled with climate change and the surplus, or lack of vital requirements...hence we have found the mechanics behind genetic change...reaching out for vital needs alters the genetic code. We can now look at other places where genetic changes take place and they all seem to hinge upon our emotional, nervous, strength. So Jesus had got it right...upbuild this strength via his spiritual path and we can talk to our own genetic health, soothing and calming it so that our inner living-cells can repair and form better patterns and thereby become stronger and can replicate in a more wholesome way.


wigginhall

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Re: Role of Religions
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2018, 06:08:09 PM »
Why do people persist with the random variation thing?  Have they seriously not read about natural selection, plus inheritance?
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