Using the word illusion

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water

Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self

Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?

[Shaker]

I think we need a little bit more to go on than the random effusion of someone who is to philosophical thought as Churchill was to Woodbines.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think we need a little bit more to go on than the random effusion of someone who is to philosophical thought as Churchill was to Woodbines.

So you think Both are OK then, or what?

Consciousness is the illusion of consciousness? Dennetts circular argument?

[wigginhall]

Well, what are the short-comings of the idea of the illusion of self?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well, what are the short-comings of the idea of the illusion of self?

It seems that the self is an illusion of it's, er, self. That is IMHO a bit suspect.
It's a bit circular don't you think?

A mirage being an illusion of something else seems on safer logical grounds.

try this one then

A mirage is an illusion of a mirage. Is that a sensible thing to say? I'm not sure it is.

[Shaker]

It seems that the self is an illusion of it's, er, self. That is IMHO a bit suspect.
It's a bit circular don't you think?

No. By my own frank admission I am to philosophy as Stephen Hawking was to contemporary interpretative jazz dance, yet even I can see what's up with this one. Carry on: tell me all about what you think is/perceive to be what you think is the circularity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If self is the illusion of self then is illusion the illusion of illusion?

The self is the illusion of what it is, the self.

The self is not what it is.......which is the self.

Mirage is an illusion of water but is A mirage an illusion of a mirage?

[Maeght]

Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water

Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self

Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?

Who has said Example 2?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who has said Example 2?

I did in, er, example 2.

If the self is an illusion

And a mirage is an illusion of water...what is the self an illusion of?

And what is being illuded?

[Maeght]

I did in, er, example 2.

If the self is an illusion

And a mirage is an illusion of water...what is the self an illusion of?

And what is being illuded?

Exactly. You've phrased something in such a way as to then attack that way of phrasing something.

A mirage is an illusion, the existence of self may be an illusion, both valid statements. Look up the definition of the word illusion. It doesn't require an of.

[Rhiannon]

Exactly. You've phrased something in such a way as to then attack that way of phrasing something.

A mirage is an illusion, the existence of self may be an illusion, both valid statements. Look up the definition of the word illusion. It doesn't require an of.

I like this post. Just saying.

[Maeght]

I like this post. Just saying.

Thanks 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Exactly. You've phrased something in such a way as to then attack that way of phrasing something.

A mirage is an illusion, the existence of self may be an illusion, both valid statements. Look up the definition of the word illusion. It doesn't require an of.

OK
Lets try it

The self is an illusion.

Oh dear.......an unjustified assertion.

[Nearly Sane]

OK
Lets try it

The self is an illusion.

Oh dear.......an unjustified assertion.

Except Maeght wrote 'may be an illusion'. So your post is lying about what he said. Why? Why did you choose to lie here?

[Maeght]

OK
Lets try it

The self is an illusion.

Oh dear.......an unjustified assertion.

If I had said that you would be right. Since I didn't you are ..... (you can fill in the blanks if you like).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If I had said that you would be right. Since I didn't you are ..... (you can fill in the blanks if you like).

Where did I say you said it.

You said that an illusion didn't have to have an ''of''.

So I tried it and it comes out as an assertion.

In what way then is the self maybe an illusion? What properties or abilities does it lack that render it completely unreal.

[Maeght]

Where did I say you said it.

You said that an illusion didn't have to have an ''of''.

So I tried it and it comes out as an assertion.

In what way then is the self maybe an illusion? What properties or abilities does it lack that render it completely unreal.

The implication was that I had made that assertion. NS felt the same. Perhaps you need to be careful how you word your posts.

The answer to your question is, as far as I'm concerned, who knows?

[jeremyp]

Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water

Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self

Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?

It's a circular definition.

Who is it that has tried to use it?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's a circular definition.

Correct.
Unfortunately I have no way of sending you the first prize of an antique genuine Armitage Shanks Hunting Elephant Bidet.

[splashscuba]

I have just wasted 1 minute of my life reading this post. When I say wasted, I probably would have done that anyway, watching baby cats on Facebook but hey.

[Stranger]

Consciousness is the illusion of consciousness? Dennetts circular argument?

Reference?

I suspect you either haven't read Dennett or, if you have, you didn't understand it.

[wigginhall]

One of the problems in discussing the illusory self is that as a concept, it's found in different fields.   Eastern religions have been discussing it for centuries, for example, although quite often, it's the separate self that's cited as not existing.   This is different from the arguments in philosophy, psychology, neuroscience, and so on.   Anyway, I expect that Google will supply information.

[Sriram]

Use 1...Example... A mirage is the illusion of water

Use 2...Example... The self is merely an illusion of a self

Anyone else see the shortcomings of use 2?

I think you make a valid point. Torridon (and others) often make the point about the sense of self being an illusion, but they never say to whom it is an illusion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you make a valid point. Torridon (and others) often make the point about the sense of self being an illusion, but they never say to whom it is an illusion.

Agreed.


They are suggesting that an illusion can experience an illusion IMV.


The self then returns to being the thing Searle says Dennett has failed to explain.

[wigginhall]

This sounds like the theatre idea - that experience is going on, watched by a spectator.  One problem with this is regress, i.e. is the spectator being watched?   Anyway, it is dualistic, so there is experiencer and experience.   Some Buddhists argue for a non-dualistic 'block', or whatever you call it, with no centre.