Author Topic: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish? (Read 19561 times)

No I worship God who made nature.
I take it you find nature an unerring horrid thing.
Death and suffering are our lot but the real monstrousness is equating suffering from nature with the suffering inflicted at the hands of humans.

I am beginning to think that the reason you cannot contemplate a moment where as Julian of Norwich states ''all shall be well'' is that you just cannot see it or believe it because perhaps you have had no taste of it.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #33 on:** July 12, 2018, 06:56:17 PM »

Quote from: Shaker on July 12, 2018, 06:53:40 PM

All in your head.

Just like God.

Nope, all in HIS head until he splurged it out.

jeremyp · « **Reply #34 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:00:07 PM »

Quote from: Dicky Underpants on July 12, 2018, 04:55:21 PM

However, Steve has a point when he says that firm believers of former ages perhaps did not have the same extent of horror of mortal suffering simply because they believed what they did -

I disagree. There's no reason to believe that today's religious people are any less fervent in their beliefs than they were in times gone past.

I think that people in times gone past were simply more inured to suffering than we are today. As Rhiannon has said, suffering was much more prevalent. One in four women died in child birth. Infant mortality was much higher. You likely died of some nasty and painful disease. Human induced suffering was also worse than it is now. There were public executions that were considered to be entertainment and they were often extremely gruesome by our standards.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #35 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:04:57 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on July 12, 2018, 07:00:07 PM

Human induced suffering was also worse than it is now.

Does that apply to the suffering implied by the worlds nuclear arsenal or global warming?
What about London knife crime that's on the way up? or Brexit where it seems we could face starvation and existential panic for the sake of the bank balances of a few people?

If you mean the suffering of white Europeans you might have a point.

jeremyp · « **Reply #36 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:06:29 PM »

Quote from: The poster formerly known as.... on July 12, 2018, 06:55:27 PM

No I worship God who made nature.

Including leukaemia

Quote

I take it you find nature an unerring horrid thing.

Well large parts of it are.

Quote

Death and suffering are our lot but the real monstrousness is equating suffering from nature with the suffering inflicted at the hands of humans.

Humans are part of nature. Do you think victims of ebola take any solace from the knowledge that at least it's not a human causing the suffering?

jeremyp · « **Reply #37 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:08:18 PM »

Quote from: The poster formerly known as.... on July 12, 2018, 07:04:57 PM

Does that apply to the suffering implied by the worlds nuclear arsenal or global warming?

How much suffering have those things caused so far?

Quote

What about London knife crime that's on the way up? or Brexit where it seems we could face starvation and existential panic for the sake of the bank balances of a few people?

How do those things rate compared to being broken on a wheel? How do they rate for the spectators?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #38 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:17:48 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on July 12, 2018, 07:06:29 PM

Including leukaemiaWell large parts of it are.
Humans are part of nature. Do you think victims of ebola take any solace from the knowledge that at least it's not a human causing the suffering?

You minimise human evil IMV.
With Ebola being natural there are no humans involved who face confirming themselves in the flames of deep perdition by their evil deed.

I

jeremyp · « **Reply #39 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:33:28 PM »

Quote from: The poster formerly known as.... on July 12, 2018, 07:17:48 PM

You minimise human evil IMV.

No.

Quote

With Ebola being natural there are no humans involved who face confirming themselves in the flames of deep perdition by their evil deed.

Do you think that the victims of ebola take any comfort from the fact that it wasn't caused by humans?

Rhiannon · « **Reply #40 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:34:51 PM »

Quote from: The poster formerly known as.... on July 12, 2018, 06:49:51 PM

The dark and violent sanctimony emanating from him.

Do you have any idea how scary you sound?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #41 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:36:16 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on July 12, 2018, 07:33:28 PM

No.
Do you think that the victims of ebola take any comfort from the fact that it wasn't caused by humans?

I don't know.

I suppose you are going to claim they don't.

jeremyp · « **Reply #42 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:37:27 PM »

Quote from: The poster formerly known as.... on July 12, 2018, 07:36:16 PM

I don't know.

I suppose you are going to claim they don't.

I'd bet substantial sums of money that they don't. After all, we know how to stop suffering inflicted by humans.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #43 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:53:57 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on July 12, 2018, 07:37:27 PM

After all, we know how to stop suffering inflicted by humans.

That'll be why it never happens

ippy · « **Reply #44 on:** July 12, 2018, 08:13:03 PM »

Quote from: Rhiannon on July 12, 2018, 05:23:21 PM

I am unaware on non believers trying to prove the non existence of an afterlife. I am aware of non believers challenging those who try to present proof that there is one (eg challenging psychics). But really the onus is on believers to present the proof that the afterlife exists.

I think that without a belief in an afterlife where some kind of wholeness is achievable, belief in a loving and merciful god is highly problematic.

You got in before me Riannon, that's exactly it, I 'couldn't agree more.

Regards ippy

Shaker · « **Reply #45 on:** July 12, 2018, 08:26:46 PM »

Quote from: ippy on July 12, 2018, 08:13:03 PM

You got in before me Riannon, that's exactly it, I 'couldn't agree more.

I do that a lot.

SteveH · « **Reply #46 on:** July 12, 2018, 10:18:09 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on July 12, 2018, 05:35:19 PM

I am still a bit confused by the OP title? SteveH , in what way do you think the argument, whoever makes it, is 'circularish'?

I was asking, not asserting, and i also added "ish" as a further indication of doubt, but I was suggesting that non-believers assume the non-existence of an eternity of bliss, which might redeem the suffering of this life, which is part of what they're trying to prove.

SteveH · « **Reply #47 on:** July 12, 2018, 10:19:30 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on July 12, 2018, 06:14:27 PM

Except your god choose the 'rules' on childhood leukaemia. You worship something that chooses pain and suffering. You worship a thug and bathe in its evil, orgasming as it kills.

You might get taken more seriously if you toned down the purple prose a bit.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #48 on:** July 13, 2018, 04:35:07 AM »

Quote from: Steve H on July 12, 2018, 10:19:30 PM

You might get taken more seriously if you toned down the purple prose a bit.

I use it occasionally. I might take you more seriously if you were to avoid lazy generalizations as frequently as you do.

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #49 on:** July 13, 2018, 04:43:33 AM »

Quote from: The poster formerly known as.... on July 12, 2018, 06:55:27 PM

No I worship God who made nature.
I take it you find nature an unerring horrid thing.
Death and suffering are our lot but the real monstrousness is equating suffering from nature with the suffering inflicted at the hands of humans.

I am beginning to think that the reason you cannot contemplate a moment where as Julian of Norwich states ''all shall be well'' is that you just cannot see it or believe it because perhaps you have had no taste of it.

Your God created suffering. You worship your god. You love your god and the suffering it created. You take joy in childhood leukaemia.

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Author Topic: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish? (Read 19561 times)

Rhiannon

Rhiannon