Author Topic: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?  (Read 19406 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #175 on: July 19, 2018, 07:11:54 PM »
Nice one. I have to turn off computer now, but I shall be looking out with interest tomorrow morning for a reply.
Yes, it's an often overlooked point, but reading a biography is not the same as a personal relationship. If it was, I'd have personal relationships with a great many famous people. If you need the Bible to have a personal relationship with God, you do not have a personal relationship with God.
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ippy

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #176 on: July 19, 2018, 10:59:27 PM »
Yes, it's an often overlooked point, but reading a biography is not the same as a personal relationship. If it was, I'd have personal relationships with a great many famous people. If you need the Bible to have a personal relationship with God, you do not have a personal relationship with God.

Good one j p.

Regards ippy

SteveH

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #177 on: July 19, 2018, 11:09:12 PM »
Some points in response

1. How do you know that they weren't bothered?

2. The world's sufferings could (I would even say would) seem more significant because of their belief in an Almighty God who is sovereign, something you don't hear a lot about today. Prayer isn't just about getting answers. It's about aligning our will with His; something the Lord's Prayer illustrates at the start. How are people who won't even acknowledge Almighty God in a position to comment on anything He does or doesn't do? It's breathtaking arrogance!!

At the risk of incurring your wrath again, I'm going to repeat some points I've made in the past.

Believers in earlier ages (as well as now) are in a relationship with God. One can read the Psalms of David, to the lyrics of hymns such as Amazing Grace and And Can It Be That I Should Gain. They are the created being. God is the Creator. Nothing stops them asking questions of God Almighty, but in the absence of answers, they trust.

The problem today is that individuals want all the answers. They are in effect creating a god of their own intellect. This is why many appear to have conversion experiences, whereas in reality they have an intellectual framework that appears to work. When the latest anti-theist argument comes along that they cannot answer, the framework falls away and they give up their faith. All that is shown is that their faith was never in God, it was in arguments about Him.

If you are going to respond, do spare me your usual post-modern nonsense where you make pejorative comments about the post and fail to address from a perspective of right/wrong its detail.
I AM NOT A POST-MODERNIST! FFS - how many times do I have to say it? I DEPLORE post-modernism - it is dangerous and leaves us unable to say anything meaningful about anything.

Secondly, why are you picking arguments with someone who is arguing on your side of the debate?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 11:11:51 PM by Genial Harry Grout »
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Robbie

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #178 on: July 19, 2018, 11:35:00 PM »
Small thorny flower asked you a question on previous page Harry.
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SteveH

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2018, 11:38:21 PM »
Small thorny flower asked you a question on previous page Harry.
She asked Vlad, not me.
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SteveH

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #180 on: July 19, 2018, 11:40:04 PM »
Or did you think I was Vlad's latest incarnation? I am in fact the poster formerly known as SteveH.
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Robbie

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #181 on: July 19, 2018, 11:45:39 PM »
Oh yeah sorry. 'Poster formerly known as' not 'Tarquin flim bin' or whatever you were :-).
I'm confused by names  (your posts are not alike) but like your new one even if the original Genial Harry was scary.
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Roses

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #182 on: July 21, 2018, 10:47:14 AM »
Or did you think I was Vlad's latest incarnation? I am in fact the poster formerly known as SteveH.


Anyone could be forgiven for getting you and Vlad confused, as you both keep coming up with crazy names. ::)
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SteveH

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #183 on: July 21, 2018, 12:06:44 PM »
I AM NOT A POST-MODERNIST! FFS - how many times do I have to say it? I DEPLORE post-modernism - it is dangerous and leaves us unable to say anything meaningful about anything.

Secondly, why are you picking arguments with someone who is arguing on your side of the debate?
As usual, SOTS turns up. posts bollocks, and then buggers off again, ignoring replies to his bollocks.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

ippy

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #184 on: July 21, 2018, 01:06:23 PM »
As usual, SOTS turns up. posts bollocks, and then buggers off again, ignoring replies to his bollocks.

Quite a few of your posts Steve, they're not that genial, maybe it's time for a changed handle,

Perhaps it'd be a good idea to file Sots a bit further up on the list of really gone godheads, you'd have to file him below Alan B though.

Regards ippy

P S I changed my handle from Iplova to ippy, because it's shorter no capital and it was also an amalgam of the various nicknames I received on responses to my posts.

SusanDoris

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2018, 05:48:03 PM »
Perhaps it'd be a good idea to file Sots a bit further up on the list of really gone godheads, you'd have to file him below Alan B though.

Regards ippy
Oh, I don't know... They are pretty much on a level I think; one is, as far as I can see, supercilious/arrogant and the other very-humble/arrogant!! I find that when SotS's name comes up, it makes me laugh and I think, I wonder what fun we'll have this time. :) AsAB is there most of the time, I either read only one in, say four, or glance at a quoted-in-reply post.

ETA I sometimes wonder how either of them would fit in and post on SofF - not well, probably.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 05:50:06 PM by SusanDoris »
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SteveH

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2018, 06:13:53 PM »
Oh, I don't know... They are pretty much on a level I think; one is, as far as I can see, supercilious/arrogant and the other very-humble/arrogant!! I find that when SotS's name comes up, it makes me laugh and I think, I wonder what fun we'll have this time. :) AsAB is there most of the time, I either read only one in, say four, or glance at a quoted-in-reply post.

ETA I sometimes wonder how either of them would fit in and post on SofF - not well, probably.
Dunno about that - I think AB is a thoroughly nice, humble, bloke. Wrong, but nice. I won't say what I think of SOTS.
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Roses

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2018, 06:27:30 PM »
Dunno about that - I think AB is a thoroughly nice, humble, bloke. Wrong, but nice. I won't say what I think of SOTS.

I agree AB is a decent guy, even if I don't see it his way. As for Sword, well that is another story.
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Robbie

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2018, 07:12:11 PM »
Sword is surely not trying to avoid answering questions Genial Harry, he probably has other things to do. He's not someone who posts here all that often. You're nothing like Vlad even though i did get your name changes confused.

Ippy Genial Harry Grout was not a genial character, he was a scary villain!
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ippy

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #189 on: July 21, 2018, 07:17:34 PM »
Sword is surely not trying to avoid answering questions Genial Harry, he probably has other things to do. He's not someone who posts here all that often. You're nothing like Vlad even though i did get your name changes confused.

Ippy Genial Harry Grout was not a genial character, he was a scary villain!

Sorry never heard of him as a character, by the way my handle is all lower case, this isn't good enough Rob.

Regards ippy

Maeght

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #190 on: July 21, 2018, 07:45:26 PM »
Sorry never heard of him as a character, by the way my handle is all lower case, this isn't good enough Rob.

Regards ippy

Never seen Porridge?

Robbie

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #191 on: July 21, 2018, 07:49:53 PM »
Oh sorry ippy! I won't do it again.
Genial Harry Grout was a character from Porridge so he was in prison. Everyone was scared of him including the screws. I googled the name and that's how I found out, I did see some episodes of Porridge when I was a teenager but don't remember all the names (except Fletch).
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SteveH

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #192 on: July 21, 2018, 08:39:54 PM »
Sorry never heard of him as a character, by the way my handle is all lower case, this isn't good enough Rob.

Regards ippy
Genial Harry Grout, HMP Slade's Mr Big, played brilliantly by Peter Vaughan, was based on Noel Coward's Mr Bridger in 'The Itaian Job'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Porridge_(TV_series)#Harry_Grout
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 08:42:05 PM by Genial Harry Grout »
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ippy

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #193 on: July 21, 2018, 09:42:01 PM »
Genial Harry Grout, HMP Slade's Mr Big, played brilliantly by Peter Vaughan, was based on Noel Coward's Mr Bridger in 'The Itaian Job'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Porridge_(TV_series)#Harry_Grout

Ar yes knew the face and the charecter but for some reason I hadn't picked up on the name, no idea why?

Regards toall ippy

ippy

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #194 on: July 21, 2018, 10:28:45 PM »
Dunno about that - I think AB is a thoroughly nice, humble, bloke. Wrong, but nice. I won't say what I think of SOTS.

Perhaps as you say Sots is a bit of a Mr Nasty he is also some kind of scientist? And deeply religious too?

Then I look on A B as a victim, then again scientist, theist, theist, scientist, Sots?

How sad the pair of them, good question, which one goes to the top of the class?

Regards to all ippy

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #195 on: July 24, 2018, 04:24:30 PM »
Then try responding to what I wrote. You can find where I said, they were never true Christians in the first place in my post, can't you?

You wrote this:

Quote
The problem today is that individuals want all the answers. They are in effect creating a god of their own intellect. This is why many appear to have conversion experiences, whereas in reality they have an intellectual framework that appears to work. When the latest anti-theist argument comes along that they cannot answer, the framework falls away and they give up their faith. All that is shown is that their faith was never in God, it was in arguments about Him.

To me, that is tantamount to saying "they were never true Christians in the first place". That is, you have determined that certain individuals' conversion experiences were not the genuine article, or they would not have lost their faith. It may just be that there was no god, no Christ there in the first place to put their faith in. All internal - as is yours. And you have no way of demonstrating anything different, other than your assertions.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #196 on: July 24, 2018, 04:55:26 PM »
Have you ever read the Bible?

:)

This may take some time; more than I'm inclined to take at the moment. Anyway, here goes for a start:

There are many images of God in the Bible, and no doubt you've made your own selection. If we begin with the god of Isaiah 40: v 15 to the end of the chapter, the god for whom the "nations of the earth are as grasshoppers" - is this the god with whom you claim some sort of 'personal relationship'? There are words of comfort and encouragement at the beginning and ending of that chapter, but they are directed to his 'chosen people', and do not suggest the cosy arrangement that you appear to profess. The god of Isaiah 45 goes even further in emphasising this impersonal 'otherness'. There are throughout the scriptures images of God as a shepherd to his sheep, but maybe any suggestions of 'relationship' here might be lowering the tone.
The first chapter of the Bible itself establishes the transcendental picture of God, and if the Documentary Hypothesis is at all correct, then the author who wrote this is the same as the one who wrote most of Leviticus. This would appear to be a god who wishes to bore the arse of all his worshippers with a ludicrous bucketful of finickety laws.
The situation gets worse when we get a little further into the Bible - do you really want to boast of a 'relationship' with the murderous thug of a deity represented in the Book of Joshua? Or the vile psychopath of Numbers 31, who gave orders to Moses to slay all the Midianites, men women and boys, but to rape the young virgin girls?

On a cooler level, how would you have a 'relationship' with the nebulous, distant god of Ecclesiastes?

"AH! (I hear you say) - "but I'm talking about Jesus"
Well, there are many Jesuses in the New Testament.
I suppose you could get some sense of God wanting a relationship with each individual from Revelation 3:10 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock". I think I said enough for most people when I mentioned the Book of Revelation. You have the problem of reconciling the fire-breathing monster of most of the book with gentler images. I suggest the author was confused, if not drugged.

The synoptic gospels offer no consistency either. I'm not sure I'd want a personal relationship with a deluded apocalyptic prophet who was convinced the end of the world would occur in the lifetime of some of his listeners, and who was forever casting people into outer darkness, telling the ones who disagreed with him to 'depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and all his angels'
There is of course, the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount - but does that speak of 'relationship'? It speaks of comfort for the afflicted, certainly (as did deutero-Isaiah), but that is surely not quite the same thing.
Then there is the Jesus of John and in part St Paul, with his 'elect' (you perhaps are one of this select band?) Perhaps we have to be part of the elect to get on personal terms with God, but the original texts do not convince that there is any specific way of going about this.
Enough already.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 02:33:34 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2018, 02:38:19 PM »
Well, with the above post I really seem to have pretty well derailed the thread. So, anyone with further thoughts on the thread title?

Meantime, maybe such comments as I made above might be the subject of a new thread, such as "A Personal Relationship With God?"

There is a big question mark there.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2018, 02:42:31 PM »
Well, with the above post I really seem to have pretty well derailed the thread. So, anyone with further thoughts on the thread title?

Meantime, maybe such comments as I made above might be the subject of a new thread, such as "A Personal Relationship With God?"

There is a big question mark there.
Maybe people are just letting you riff.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Is the anti-theist argument from undeserved suffering circularish?
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2018, 02:45:10 PM »
John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.