The gadgets that swallowed the planet

[Nearly Sane]

Not really surprising when you think about it


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/17/internet-climate-carbon-footprint-data-centres

[Rhiannon]

An Alexa in every room? I was talking to my eldest last night about how Amazon want to make a kids' version, and she said 'heaven forbid kids should grow up wanting to do basic things for themselves'. So yes, streaming, but also just the very basics of having something sitting there waiting to do the most menial things for you.

We won't change. Aviation is expanding, not contracting. Most left-leaning people I know fly just as much as those who aren't. I haven't met anyone who has said that they've changed their flying habits solely because of climate change. And as noted elsewhere, in these times of drought my neighbour still has his sprinkler going at night, mostly soaking my fence and the kids' trampoline.

[Roses]

Isn't it strange how we managed to survive in the old days before the advent of mobile phones! I just don't get why many people seem to have the need for 24/7 contact.

[Shaker]

Isn't it strange how we managed to survive in the old days before the advent of mobile phones! I just don't get why many people seem to have the need for 24/7 contact.

Because we're in the age of smartphones now, not just a mobile telephone. My first phone (c. early 1998) made phone calls and sent text messages and that was about it. Now, I have the Web at my fingertips - literally. Making telephone calls is the very least of all things I do with my phone - this is being written on one, for a start.

[Rhiannon]

Because we're in the age of smartphones now, not just a mobile telephone. My first phone (c. early 1998) made phone calls and sent text messages and that was about it. Now, I have the Web at my fingertips - literally. Making telephone calls is the very least of all things I do with my phone - this is being written on one, for a start.

Early phones had Snake. I love Snake.

[Rhiannon]

Isn't it strange how we managed to survive in the old days before the advent of mobile phones! I just don't get why many people seem to have the need for 24/7 contact.

It's not contact that is the issue, or not solely. It's all the other stuff. Having a 'smart assistant' constantly sitting there waiting for you to tell it to play music, put the lights on or tell you what the weather is in Dublin. Things we are perfectly capable of doing for ourselves.

[Shaker]

Also, merely being able to survive without something is no argument for doing without it once it exists. Humanity in general survived before the era of antibiotics, dentistry and drains - individually, squillions didn't - but not many people would choose not to avail themselves of them now.

[Rhiannon]

Well yeah, but I've found that while drains stop my dying from dysentery and antibiotics from all kinds of other things, and dentistry stops me from wanting to cut my own head off because of the agony, my life runs fine without an Alexa.

[Nearly Sane]

Well yeah, but I've found that while I want all of those, my life runs fine without an Alexa.

It got accidentally switched on on a tablet of mine once. It was quickly switched off.

That said the support that this type of thing could provide to people is leaving aside the cons considerable. As with much technology it's a question of how it can be used.

[Roses]

Because we're in the age of smartphones now, not just a mobile telephone. My first phone (c. early 1998) made phone calls and sent text messages and that was about it. Now, I have the Web at my fingertips - literally. Making telephone calls is the very least of all things I do with my phone - this is being written on one, for a start.

I would find a smartphone extremely difficult to use as they are too small for me to see them properly, I dislike touch screens. On the occasions I have to use my ipad I get stressed. I have absolutely no need to keep in touch with the world when I am out. I only carry my basic mobile phone with me when I am driving in case I have an emergency. It is never switched on,no one has the number, not even family.

I use my laptop for all my internet communications, I have a computer mouse, which is easier for me.

[Rhiannon]

My son has an old style pay-as-you-go flip phone and even that has internet connectivity.

[Roses]

My son has an old style pay-as-you-go flip phone and even that has internet connectivity.

Mine could do too, I have no idea. All I need to know is how to make a call, nothing else.

[ippy]

An Alexa in every room? I was talking to my eldest last night about how Amazon want to make a kids' version, and she said 'heaven forbid kids should grow up wanting to do basic things for themselves'. So yes, streaming, but also just the very basics of having something sitting there waiting to do the most menial things for you.

We won't change. Aviation is expanding, not contracting. Most left-leaning people I know fly just as much as those who aren't. I haven't met anyone who has said that they've changed their flying habits solely because of climate change. And as noted elsewhere, in these times of drought my neighbour still has his sprinkler going at night, mostly soaking my fence and the kids' trampoline.

I reckon Alexa's are something to do with the Russians?

ippy

[SteveH]

I would find a smartphone extremely difficult to use as they are too small for me to see them properly, I dislike touch screens. On the occasions I have to use my ipad I get stressed. I have absolutely no need to keep in touch with the world when I am out. I only carry my basic mobile phone with me when I am driving in case I have an emergency. It is never switched on,no one has the number, not even family.

I use my laptop for all my internet communications, I have a computer mouse, which is easier for me.

Me too. I've never had a smartphone that I could persuade to do all the things it was supposed to do. I hate them, and now just have a dirt-cheap, utterly basic mobe, and hardly ever use even that. I spend far too much time on my laptop as it is, without using  smartphone when I'm not at home.

[Roses]

Me too. I've never had a smartphone that I could persuade to do all the things it was supposed to do. I hate them, and now just have a dirt-cheap, utterly basic mobe, and hardly ever use even that. I spend far too much time on my laptop as it is, without using  smartphone when I'm not at home.

Blimey we have something in common, SHOCK HORROR, I better lie down.

[jeremyp]

So the digital world uses a lot of electricity.

Yes it does, but it has the potential to reduce energy consumption in other areas. For example, it could theoretically, reduce the number of business trips people make. I say "theoretically" because I don't see it happening much yet. There's also the possibility that it would cut down the amount of shopping trips people do. Imagine if, instead of everybody going to the supermarket, shopping was delivered. I imagine you would see a net drop in energy consumption if most people did it. One day in the not too distant future, all books will be delivered electronically. Imagine the savings not having to transport all those dead trees around.

As a side note, the incidence of teenage pregnancy has dropped off a cliff in the UK. The correlation between not having the internet at home and teenage pregnancy is something like 0.99, which is to say it is very strong. Also, teenagers are drinking less  and taking fewer drugs, which, again, seems to be correlated with the increase in the digital world.

[Rhiannon]

So the digital world uses a lot of electricity.

Yes it does, but it has the potential to reduce energy consumption in other areas. For example, it could theoretically, reduce the number of business trips people make. I say "theoretically" because I don't see it happening much yet. There's also the possibility that it would cut down the amount of shopping trips people do. Imagine if, instead of everybody going to the supermarket, shopping was delivered. I imagine you would see a net drop in energy consumption if most people did it. One day in the not too distant future, all books will be delivered electronically. Imagine the savings not having to transport all those dead trees around.

As a side note, the incidence of teenage pregnancy has dropped off a cliff in the UK. The correlation between not having the internet at home and teenage pregnancy is something like 0.99, which is to say it is very strong. Also, teenagers are drinking less  and taking fewer drugs, which, again, seems to be correlated with the increase in the digital world.

No, people will always want the trip away on expenses. And I'm not convinced about shopping either. I buy my bulk stuff on Amazon but I want to go to the supermarket and choose my own fresh stuff. And both my eldest and I are avid readers, both tried Kindle and both went back to books.

You do have a point about youngsters - I am continually staggered by how sensible teenagers are now compared to when I was a kid - but that doesn't mean that the avalanche of hormones has somehow been stoppered by playing Fortnite. The online world has now exposed them to sexting, with its risks of shame, bullying, and even blackmail and suicide.

And I'm not sure that anyone is objecting to the digital world anyway - just questioning how far we are going with it. Getting food delivered makes sense; having an electronic gadget permanently on standby because you can't be arsed to put your own music on doesn't so much.

[jeremyp]

No, people will always want the trip away on expenses.

It's not a question of what they want but what the company allows them. If it's cheaper to do something using a Skype conference than fly people to sundry parts the world, that is what will eventually (and frequently already does) happen.

And I'm not convinced about shopping either. I buy my bulk stuff on Amazon but I want to go to the supermarket and choose my own fresh stuff. And both my eldest and I are avid readers, both tried Kindle and both went back to books.

But that is because you are used to a certain way of doing things. For people in the future, electronic books will be the norm. Do not make the mistake of projecting your preferences onto other people, including future generations. When the codex was first invented, there were probably plenty of people who said "I can't get on with this page turning, give me a scroll any day".

You do have a point about youngsters - I am continually staggered by how sensible teenagers are now compared to when I was a kid - but that doesn't mean that the avalanche of hormones has somehow been stoppered by playing Fortnite. The online world has now exposed them to sexting, with its risks of shame, bullying, and even blackmail and suicide.

Most of them don't get as far as the blackmail and suicide. So we have to decide where the balance is: do we accept the online dangers as the price to pay for having reduced teenage pregnancy and alcohol abuse?

having an electronic gadget permanently on standby because you can't be arsed to put your own music on doesn't so much.

Also, and this is of relevance to the article which talks about the enormous amount of energy used by data centres, there is a trend for streaming music off music services like Spotify and Apple Music instead of downloading it to play from your phone or whatever.

[Samuel]

that doesn't mean that the avalanche of hormones has somehow been stoppered by playing Fortnite. The online world has now exposed them to sexting, with its risks of shame, bullying, and even blackmail and suicide.

Have you listened to the podcast The Butterfly Effect by John Ronson? Its well worth it. Its basically all about the advent of free internet porn and the impacts it had. Those stats in the news today - the pregnancy rate dropping off a cliff from 2007 onwards? Guess what year PornHub went live. Apparently erectile dysfunction amongst young men (17-25) has skyrocketed since then too, but that didn't make it into the sensible teens statistics.

Scary

[wigginhall]

I thought it was the increase in piracy.

[Rhiannon]

Have you listened to the podcast The Butterfly Effect by John Ronson? Its well worth it. Its basically all about the advent of free internet porn and the impacts it had. Those stats in the news today - the pregnancy rate dropping off a cliff from 2007 onwards? Guess what year PornHub went live. Apparently erectile dysfunction amongst young men (17-25) has skyrocketed since then too, but that didn't make it into the sensible teens statistics.

Scary

And there are also the effects that porn has on sex lives of the young generally - not just porn addiction but a distorted view of relationships and bodies, an expectation that neither gender should have body hair, a belief that sex should involve violence or that the correct place to ejaculate is the face...

[Rhiannon]

It's not a question of what they want but what the company allows them. If it's cheaper to do something using a Skype conference than fly people to sundry parts the world, that is what will eventually (and frequently already does) happen.
But that is because you are used to a certain way of doing things. For people in the future, electronic books will be the norm. Do not make the mistake of projecting your preferences onto other people, including future generations. When the codex was first invented, there were probably plenty of people who said "I can't get on with this page turning, give me a scroll any day".
Most of them don't get as far as the blackmail and suicide. So we have to decide where the balance is: do we accept the online dangers as the price to pay for having reduced teenage pregnancy and alcohol abuse?

Also, and this is of relevance to the article which talks about the enormous amount of energy used by data centres, there is a trend for streaming music off music services like Spotify and Apple Music instead of downloading it to play from your phone or whatever.

Firstly, I am not my daughter. So it isn't just the luddite old bat that has rejected ebooks, it is someone who generally embraces new technology. She streams, I use iTunes.

And are you really dismissing shaming and bullying so easily just because blackmail and suicide don't result?

[jeremyp]

Firstly, I am not my daughter. So it isn't just the luddite old bat that has rejected ebooks, it is someone who generally embraces new technology. She streams, I use iTunes.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong to prefer physical books it's just that people like you (and your daughter) will become rarer and rarer. In fact, I can see a trend in which the written word becomes less and less important. It's entirely possible that people in the future won't read books, they'll listen to them.

In some situations it's already becoming a pain. I like playing Minecraft but if you want instructions on how to do x, y or z complicated thing in Minecraft, it's much easier to find a youtube video that walks you through than to find written instructions.

And are you really dismissing shaming and bullying so easily just because blackmail and suicide don't result?

Such things are a continuum. Bullying and shaming have been a fact of life, probably for millennia. Usually, it's not serious enough to really hurt people, but you only hear about the cases where it went over the top. It's not a case of dismissing so much as balancing the negatives against the positives.

[Rhiannon]

I'm not saying you are right or wrong to prefer physical books it's just that people like you (and your daughter) will become rarer and rarer. In fact, I can see a trend in which the written word becomes less and less important. It's entirely possible that people in the future won't read books, they'll listen to them.

In some situations it's already becoming a pain. I like playing Minecraft but if you want instructions on how to do x, y or z complicated thing in Minecraft, it's much easier to find a youtube video that walks you through than to find written instructions.
Such things are a continuum. Bullying and shaming have been a fact of life, probably for millennia. Usually, it's not serious enough to really hurt people, but you only hear about the cases where it went over the top. It's not a case of dismissing so much as balancing the negatives against the positives.

I've always listened to books. It used to be on cassette, then CD, now on my iPod via Audible.

I think Youtube demos are a thing because they are easier to follow. When I wanted to first change my nose stud, written instructions didn't cut it. But when gaming we all tend to read play throughs rather than watch videos.

The difference between bullying and shaming then and now is that now it lasts forever. Back in the day you would fear the reaction of your class, maybe your year at school but not much else. These days it could be your video that goes viral, such as the 'bravo' one in Italy that led to the suicide of the young woman involved. Or send a message to the wrong WhatsApp recipient, it gets shared, a young person thinks their career is tanked, he commits suicide (happened just recently). Once an image or video is out there, that's it - it's there for future employers, spouses, family to see. And kids don't have the experience to know where to draw the line or think far ahead. Sharing intimate images is absolutely rife at the school my kids go to and I see no reason to think that it is different elsewhere. I favourite 'sport' seems to be for girls to elicit dick pics from boys that they lead on, then they are shared and laughed at for size etc. The isn't confined to the showers at school, this is out there on phones and tablets and god knows where.

[jeremyp]

The difference between bullying and shaming then and now is that now it lasts forever. Back in the day you would fear the reaction of your class, maybe your year at school but not much else. These days it could be your video that goes viral, such as the 'bravo' one in Italy that led to the suicide of the young woman involved. Or send a message to the wrong WhatsApp recipient, it gets shared, a young person thinks their career is tanked, he commits suicide (happened just recently). Once an image or video is out there, that's it - it's there for future employers, spouses, family to see. And kids don't have the experience to know where to draw the line or think far ahead. Sharing intimate images is absolutely rife at the school my kids go to and I see no reason to think that it is different elsewhere. I favourite 'sport' seems to be for girls to elicit dick pics from boys that they lead on, then they are shared and laughed at for size etc. The isn't confined to the showers at school, this is out there on phones and tablets and god knows where.

You are still arguing from the personal to the general. Nobody denies that there are are individual tragedies. However, the question you need to ask is is it worse now than before the Internet and social media and to answer it, you have to take into account everybody, not just the few publicised cases that ended in tragedy.