Author Topic: Is Biblical literacy still required?  (Read 3493 times)

Shaker

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Is Biblical literacy still required?
« on: July 19, 2018, 05:40:11 PM »
A postscript to a recent post by Dicky Underpants reminded us that even Richard Dawkins feels that it's important for all people, whatever their religious viewpoint, to have a reasonable working knowledge (broad rather than deep, perhaps) of the Bible as a foundational text of Western civilisation. This got me thinking (and rather than derail the aforementioned thread, I've started one on explicitly this topic).

People who espouse this viewpoint pretty well always refer to the Authorized or King James Version on the basis of the beauty of the language, as many other people do with the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. It's the style of English rather than any theological concepts that's being promoted. Nobody to my knowledge has ever said: "It's important to be familiar with the Bible - the NIV in particular." It's always one and only one specific translation that we're enjoined to be familiar with.

It raises the question however: in a society or culture of constantly diminishing levels of religious belief, how useful for how long will Biblical literacy be? At present a colossal number of English idioms and phrases come directly from the AV - hundreds; possibly thousands of them* - and it matters that people are aware of what they mean. I don't think I'm overstating the case when I say that you can't fully appreciate English idioms without such a knowledge.

However, just like biological organisms phrases sometimes go extinct when the population of those using them drops below a certain level. And another factor: until well into the 20th century it was considered de rigueur for the children of the upper middle and upper classes - those who received an expensive private education; just like Dawkins in fact - to be schooled in Latin, possibly Greek as well, and to have some understanding of Greek and Roman mythology in order to understand the classical allusions with which Western art and culture are stuffed. That's no longer the case; now the few people who read Greek mythology do so out of their own interest and for their own pleasure (like me). Hands up who knows (simply knows already, without Googling!) the story of Baucis and Philemon, or Leda and the swan?

If there could be such a sea change in that regard, over the long course of history could Biblical literacy go the same way? Does it have a future in the long term or could it go the way of schooling in Latin and Greek and become the preserve of a select few who pursue it based on individual inclination?

* Just a few here: https://tinyurl.com/y8z63uzw
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:56:46 PM by Shaker »
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Rhiannon

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2018, 05:59:01 PM »
I don't think biblical literacy is necessary. However, if you want to debate the Bible's worth with others then you really should at least have the basics down.

Shaker

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2018, 06:01:53 PM »
Sure - goes without saying -, but that's talking about its worth as a theological document and presumably in that regard almost any version/translation would do. At the least you could start a debate about the relative merits of this or that translation. When Dawkins opines that people ought to know their Bible, he means they ought to know their KJV. It's an aesthetic judgement rather than a religious one.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2018, 06:29:17 PM »
Very interesting OP. I think it will depend on the teachers of RE and English Literature. Since the teaching of the history of religions and a knowledge about them will most certainly continue - although let us hope with a gradually speeding up lessening of any god being taught as a fact - so that the characters of the stories will be known.

There wil always too, of course, be children who, if there are words anywhere around them, will have an innate drive to read them, who will find their way inexorably to dictionaries and encyclopaedic information and find the trail of links irresistible.

No I don't think there will be a compelling need to have biblical litracy, but I don't think the richness of the language will fade away. It will take different directions perhaps.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 06:57:16 PM by SusanDoris »
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jeremyp

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2018, 06:50:19 PM »
Quote
Is Biblical literacy still required?

There are more Muslims in this country than active Christians so let's ask: is Koranic literacy still required? I have to answer that question in the negative since I know very little about the Koran and have never found that to be a disadvantage. Thus I am forced to answer your question in the negative too, much as I am a cultural Christian and have grown up with the stories from the Bible.
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Robbie

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2018, 08:57:19 PM »
I don't think biblical literacy is necessary. However, if you want to debate the Bible's worth with others then you really should at least have the basics down.

Yes I agree and whilst the Authorised version is beautiful literature, the NIV is far easier to understand and widely used.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2018, 09:01:58 PM »
Yes I agree and whilst the Authorised version is beautiful literature, the NIV is far easier to understand and widely used.

Yes, if you want to take Greek myths an example, there are tellings and retellings and some are more accessible than others. The same applies to the Bible stories.

And I prefer the Song of Solomon in modern English in the same way that I prefer Rumi in modern English.

That said, I'd avoid the NIV and go for the NRSV.

Robbie

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2018, 09:56:40 PM »
Yes, I use the NRSV most of the time and the REB sometimes, the latter because I can't remember where I put it  ::).

I have an English translation of the Qu'ran (which is currently wherever I put my REB).
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Samuel

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2018, 01:05:25 PM »
Its the equivalent of knowing that Thursday is, in fact Thor's Day, Wednesday Woden's day etc. - Commonplace artefacts of language that help draw connections between history and our lives today.

Not particularly useful in a practical sort of way (like it is to know the dates of the various christian holidays, for example) but still relevant. Its not so much the knowing that this saying came from that scripture, but appreciating that Christian heritage is woven into our culture. I think it comes down to a sense of identity. And that doesn't necessarily paint Christian affiliations as positive, only that they remain a meaningful part of 'what' Britain is now and how we arrived here. If you think that matters, then biblical literacy is naturally something to promote.

So whilst the relevance of the connection won't diminish, the traces of it in every day life will. But they are two different things in my book. Biblical literacy will always matter, but as a subject it will simply become more obscure over time.

As an aside... sort of related... or at least on the same lines... There was an article recently about how the current population of this country is probably almost entirely unrelated to the peoples that built Stone Henge. Without any rational justification, it made me feel sad. I like the idea of being a descendent, even in part (a very small part) of people who made such an iconic and long-lasting contribution to the landscape of this country. That is all about my own sense of identity though, and is anything but logical. The point is that it is part of that sense of self, just as christian heritage can be without any reference to an actual belief in a christian god. I like the Viking and Roman cultural connections too, even if a lot of them were violent bastards. Not so much the Normans, although I do like their castles... Funny innit?
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Anchorman

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 03:32:49 PM »
The strange thing is, though, that very few churches use the KJV - at least in my neck of the woods. Even the local Christian Fellowship - a (thankfully more liberal) offshoot of the Plymouth Bretheren, ditched it thirty years ago. In my own denomination, a survey of the forty-one congregations within my local Presbytery, dealing with translations - which are a matter for each individual Kirk Session- showed that none use the KJV in Sunday worship, and ministers used it on three occasions in the last five years to conduct funerals at the family's request.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2018, 05:09:48 PM »
Its the equivalent of knowing that Thursday is, in fact Thor's Day, Wednesday Woden's day etc. - Commonplace artefacts of language that help draw connections between history and our lives today.

Not particularly useful in a practical sort of way (like it is to know the dates of the various christian holidays, for example) but still relevant. Its not so much the knowing that this saying came from that scripture, but appreciating that Christian heritage is woven into our culture. I think it comes down to a sense of identity. And that doesn't necessarily paint Christian affiliations as positive, only that they remain a meaningful part of 'what' Britain is now and how we arrived here. If you think that matters, then biblical literacy is naturally something to promote.

So whilst the relevance of the connection won't diminish, the traces of it in every day life will. But they are two different things in my book. Biblical literacy will always matter, but as a subject it will simply become more obscure over time.

As an aside... sort of related... or at least on the same lines... There was an article recently about how the current population of this country is probably almost entirely unrelated to the peoples that built Stone Henge. Without any rational justification, it made me feel sad. I like the idea of being a descendent, even in part (a very small part) of people who made such an iconic and long-lasting contribution to the landscape of this country. That is all about my own sense of identity though, and is anything but logical. The point is that it is part of that sense of self, just as christian heritage can be without any reference to an actual belief in a christian god. I like the Viking and Roman cultural connections too, even if a lot of them were violent bastards. Not so much the Normans, although I do like their castles... Funny innit?

I like that.
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Robbie

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2018, 06:59:03 PM »
You have two 'likes' now Samuel.


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ippy

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2018, 06:08:51 PM »
You have two 'likes' now Samuel.

Is Biblical literacy still required?:

I'd say it is but not necessarily for use in general way or in the average person's every day life, it might be better served if it were preserved in a similar way that within our various scholarly institutions where they preserve the works of people like Cicero, Ovid or Plutarch etc  and of course there'll always be the odd few of the rapidly diminishing groups of people that still believe in the stories the bible conveys and I'm sure they'll hang on to a few copies too.

Always got my little book of Plutarch quotes in me top pocket, yer nevver know? The same goes for the K J V.

It would be a sad day if we were to loose contact with our literary past, such as the KJV bible or come to think of it Plutarch.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2018, 06:13:06 PM »
Is Biblical literacy still required?:

I'd say it is
I'd agree along with theological literacy otherwise claiming you don't have to know any becomes a licence to superimpose any supposed belief onto theists.

ippy

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 06:25:18 PM »
I'd agree along with theological literacy otherwise claiming you don't have to know any becomes a licence to superimpose any supposed belief onto theists.

I doubt if you even know why you're a theist Vlad.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2018, 06:33:07 PM »
I doubt if you even know why you're a theist Vlad.

Regards ippy.

Why?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2018, 11:27:36 PM »
I doubt if you even know why you're a theist Vlad.

Regards ippy.

Errmm....I'm just going to take a wild stab at this because it is a complicated issue to get one's head around, but could it be to do with the fact that Vlad believes in God. I know this is fairly revolutionary thinking, but it's worth considering.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 07:40:04 AM »
I like that.

Me too.

It does matter to me that we know when Michaelmas is, or what Whitsun is for. And as for the Normans, there's a sense I think that they changed our identity...although I was obscurely comforted to discover that they were mostly from Viking stock, too.

jeremyp

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2018, 10:22:57 AM »
Errmm....I'm just going to take a wild stab at this because it is a complicated issue to get one's head around, but could it be to do with the fact that Vlad believes in God. I know this is fairly revolutionary thinking, but it's worth considering.

So Vlad is a theist [believes in God] because he believes in God.

That seems a little bit circular to me.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2018, 01:20:41 PM »
So Vlad is a theist [believes in God] because he believes in God.

That seems a little bit circular to me.

As a belief in God so often is. I just dont think the accusation stands against Vlad, whether one agrees with him or not, that he doesn't know why he is a theist.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2018, 02:46:07 PM »
Hands up who knows (simply knows already, without Googling!) the story of Baucis and Philemon, or Leda and the swan?

Ah, yes, B & P. I remember my Ovid from school (lorksalorky, even ippy seemed to have a good word for Ovid). I even remember the peculiar Latin word for 'cabbage' from that story (holus), which doesn't seem to have any descendants in the Romance languages. In my best Peter Cook voice "I could have been a judge, because I did have the Latin".
Leda and the swan I know principally from the poem by Yeats, though the sexual imagery of the poem is somewhat allusive.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2018, 02:52:05 PM »
As a belief in God so often is. I just dont think the accusation stands against Vlad, whether one agrees with him or not, that he doesn't know why he is a theist.

Well, he claims to have had a life-changing spiritual experience, so I suspect he knows what are the foundations of his belief. Whether he's examined those foundations rigorously enough, intellectually, epistemologically or indeed in terms of the biblical source material, I remained unconvinced. And if I were convinced, then I would of course be of his party, though probably about as enthusiastic about him as Boris is about Theresa.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2018, 03:47:13 PM »
Well, he claims to have had a life-changing spiritual experience, so I suspect he knows what are the foundations of his belief. Whether he's examined those foundations rigorously enough, intellectually, epistemologically or indeed in terms of the biblical source material, I remained unconvinced. And if I were convinced, then I would of course be of his party, though probably about as enthusiastic about him as Boris is about Theresa.

What's great about this forum is that you can dash stuff out for it between a Pimm's and the petit fours eh, Jacob?.......

Roses

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2018, 11:41:27 AM »
What's great about this forum is that you can dash stuff out for it between a Pimm's and the petit fours eh, Jacob?.......


You must get through a heck of a lot of Pimms, which would explain your posts!   ;D ;D ;D
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Is Biblical literacy still required?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2018, 11:51:40 AM »

You must get through a heck of a lot of Pimms, which would explain your posts!   ;D ;D ;D
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