Death

[Sriram]

Presumably consciousness and a sense of self are conserved because they do have survival value.  An individual suffering from Cotard's is going to be at a competitive disadvantage against an individual with a normal healthy functioning sense of self.  Likewise with various forms of dementia in which the person inside is eroded.  If you don't see the survival value of a sense of self, just look to the various pathologies that affect it - that would be our normal state if we hadn't evolved a strong sense of self.

And why should anything survive at all?!

[torridon]

And why should anything survive at all?!

Not sure what the 'should' means there.  Things having a competitive advantage will survive at the expense of rivals.  'Should' doesn't come into it.

[Sriram]

You are taking the survival instinct for granted.

[torridon]

Not sure where you're going.  We observe a survival instinct; it's ubiquitous; it's unlikely any species without it would survive, for obvious reasons.

[Maeght]

Deleted as don't want to bother!

[Sriram]

Not sure where you're going.  We observe a survival instinct; it's ubiquitous; it's unlikely any species without it would survive, for obvious reasons.

Yes...that is why I ask. Why do organisms have this survival instinct? We tend to take it for granted.

[Sriram]

Deleted as don't want to bother!

I didn't mean to ignore you Maeght.  Sorry! 

I normally hold a conversation with one person. If others throw in their varied questions and comments at random, I find it difficult to stay on subject....and it also often leads to adhominem remarks sooner or later.

[Maeght]

I didn't mean to ignore you Maeght.  Sorry! 

I normally hold a conversation with one person. If others throw in their varied questions and comments at random, I find it difficult to stay on subject....and it also often leads to adhominem remarks sooner or later.

No problem. Just decided I didn't have the time or inclination to get involved in this discussion so deleted what I had said - especially as not sure it was relevant.

[torridon]

Yes...that is why I ask. Why do organisms have this survival instinct? We tend to take it for granted.

Ha, I see your tactic, trying to change the subject now you see your line of reasoning on seeing and hearing is unsustainable.

Extant species have a survival instinct because any lacking it have not survived.

[Sriram]

Ha, I see your tactic, trying to change the subject now you see your line of reasoning on seeing and hearing is unsustainable.

Extant species have a survival instinct because any lacking it have not survived.

No...there is no change in subject.  You talked about survival value of a 'self'.  I am only questioning that.

Why survive at all?!

[torridon]

No...there is no change in subject.  You talked about survival value of a 'self'.  I am only questioning that.

Why survive at all?!

We want to survive because individuals lacking that desire tend not to pass their genes on to the next generation.

[SusanDoris]

No...there is no change in subject.  You talked about survival value of a 'self'.  I am only questioning that.

Why survive at all?!

Do you think the earth and the solar system would have been a better place if the human species have not evolved? That would mean of course that you would not be here to ask that question.

[Shaker]

Do you think the earth and the solar system would have been a better place if the human species have not evolved? That would mean of course that you would not be here to ask that question.

I don't think the solar system (generally) would be any different. That's an awfully large field.

The Earth, yes, over all, I think.

[Sriram]

We want to survive because individuals lacking that desire tend not to pass their genes on to the next generation.

So what?!   You are not questioning the very fundamental need to survive.

[Shaker]

So what?!   You are not questioning the very fundamental need to survive.

You seem to be confusing the need to survive as an individual organism with the survival of a species generally.

[torridon]

So what?!   You are not questioning the very fundamental need to survive.

We exhibit the desires necessary to our defacto existence.  If these desires had not evolved we would not be here to discuss why we have the desires.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Clearly Cotard's sufferers are disadvantaged by their condition; how else would this condition have come to our attention but for the fact that such people have presented to their GP seeking help.

But it is not actually loss of self but a delusion held by the self...in your scheme we could describe it as the illusion is suffering from delusion.

[SusanDoris]

So what?!   You are not questioning the very fundamental need to survive.

It is not a 'need', it is an in`evitable result of natural laws which have led, via a few billion years of evolution, to the present condition of the  human species.

[SteveH]

 Born blind people have had NDE's and have been able to see like normal people.

I find this hard to believe. Can you provide details of specific cases?

[torridon]

Oh, noooo;  don't encourage him

[Sriram]

I find this hard to believe. Can you provide details of specific cases?

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-born-blind-can-see-during-nde.html

http://www.nderf.org/index.htm

[Enki]

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-born-blind-can-see-during-nde.html

http://www.nderf.org/index.htm

Or, alternatively,

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21805

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/dream-factory/201712/do-blind-people-see-in-their-dreams

[ippy]

Yes...that is why I ask. Why do organisms have this survival instinct? We tend to take it for granted.

If you haven't already read Richard Dawkins book 'The Selfish Gene' Sriram, get on to it pronto.

I love the things about the reality of life where if you go back far enough we are all, every one of us humans, related to each other, my distant cousin Sriram, has a good ring to it don't you think? 

Information from the real world is so much more satisfactory than the head in the clouds stuff.

Regards ippy

[Stranger]

So what?!   You are not questioning the very fundamental need to survive.

Evolution by natural selection necessarily produces things that are good at surviving. If you'd bothered to understand natural selection, you wouldn't be asking the question.

[Sriram]

ippy,

That we all are children of the same heavenly Father also has a nice ring to it!! 

Actually, genetics (and Dawkins) is not saying anything that was not known earlier.  It only outlines the biological mechanism. 

But what death is and why we are here and why we have developed into complex beings is not answered by genetics or evolution. These are still open to question.

And NDE's are real experiences....not imaginary.