Conservatism doesn't exist

[Rhiannon]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/25/conservatives-brexit-big-business

He's right though, isn't he?

[jeremyp]

I don't think he's right in every detail, but the general point is correct IMO. People like Rees Mogg are in favour of Brexit because they stand to do very well out of it on a personal basis. Ordinary people are in for a shafting.

[ippy]

I don't think he's right in every detail, but the general point is correct IMO. People like Rees Mogg are in favour of Brexit because they stand to do very well out of it on a personal basis. Ordinary people are in for a shafting.

I think you're right but it'll be doing the things I want to see done as well and the ordinary people always get shafted whatever/whoever's in charge.

I even voted against the EEC in Harold's day too, I certainly didn't vote for ever closer union with the E U and as we are supposed to be living live in a democracy here in the U K we should be leaving.

Regards ippy

[Rhiannon]

I don't think he's right in every detail, but the general point is correct IMO. People like Rees Mogg are in favour of Brexit because they stand to do very well out of it on a personal basis. Ordinary people are in for a shafting.

It's actually not just ordinary people, but Britain itself that gets shafted, and will continue to do so. And Britain - all of it, its landscape, economy, wildlife, freedom and rights, people -, is supposed to be what Conservatism stands for. It doesn't.

[wigginhall]

I think that was apparent under Thatcher, wasn't it?  The idea that Conservatives conserve is laughable.  I suppose if you go back to Macmillan, you had the image of aristocrats preserving an English way of life, but it was rubbish.  They preserved their grouse moors, but the younger ones would go into the City and asset strip their way to a fortune.

[ProfessorDavey]

I even voted against the EEC in Harold's day too ...

Interesting comment and indicative of the voting demographics in 1975 and 2016.

There is a lot of guff talked suggesting that because in 2016 it was the young that voted predominantly to remain, and the old that voted predominantly to leave, that 1975 was the same. The inference being that those who were relatively young in 1975 voted to stay in the common market but changed their minds by 2016.

But analysis of the 1975 demographics doesn't back this up. In 1975 the least likely group to support being in the common market were the younger voters, while older voters (probably those who remembered and were affected by the war) voted heavily to join the common market.

So in fact those young anti-common market voters of 1975 became the old brexit voters of 2016 - they hadn't changed their minds at all - they were against in 1975 and remained against in 2016.

[Rhiannon]

I think that was apparent under Thatcher, wasn't it?  The idea that Conservatives conserve is laughable.  I suppose if you go back to Macmillan, you had the image of aristocrats preserving an English way of life, but it was rubbish.  They preserved their grouse moors, but the younger ones would go into the City and asset strip their way to a fortune.

I was a youngster under Thatcher; I think it came home to me when George Osborne did away with much of the planning law that protected farmland and communities from over development, selling out the countryside (which is needed to produce food you bloody muppet) whilst enjoying the luxury of his huge country estate.

But then I heard the Benn family did something similar with Right to Roam, or was that fake news?

[Rhiannon]

Interesting comment and indicative of the voting demographics in 1975 and 2016.

There is a lot of guff talked suggesting that because in 2016 it was the young that voted predominantly to remain, and the old that voted predominantly to leave, that 1975 was the same. The inference being that those who were relatively young in 1975 voted to stay in the common market but changed their minds by 2016.

But analysis of the 1975 demographics doesn't back this up. In 1975 the least likely group to support being in the common market were the younger voters, while older voters (probably those who remembered and were affected by the war) voted heavily to join the common market.

So in fact those young anti-common market voters of 1975 became the old brexit voters of 2016 - they hadn't changed their minds at all - they were against in 1975 and remained against in 2016.

My family voted for the first time, against the second. They felt that they'd voted to join a trading bloc, not a political union, and therefore believed they'd been lied to.

Pretty much like this recent referendum then, only this one will take us back to the 1950s in terms of our wellbeing.

[ProfessorDavey]

My family voted for the first time, against the second. They felt that they'd voted to join a trading bloc, not a political union, and therefore believed they'd been lied to.

Pretty much like this recent referendum then, only this one will take us back to the 1950s in terms of our wellbeing.

And you'll probably find examples of people who voted against in 1975 and for in 2016. That is missing the point.

The cohort who voted heavily against the EU in 2016 (60+) were also the least in favour of the the common market in 1975 when they were in their twenties and thirties. The older generation in 1975 who swung the vote for the common market are largely dead of course and the younger pro-remain voters in 2016 either hadn't been born in 1975 or were too young to vote.

[Rhiannon]

And you'll probably find examples of people who voted against in 1975 and for in 2016. That is missing the point.

The cohort who voted heavily against the EU in 2016 (60+) also voted against the common market in 1975 when they were in their twenties and thirties. The older generation in 1975 who swung the vote for the common market are largely dead of course and the younger pro-remain voters in 2016 either hadn't been born in 1975 or were too young to vote.

No, I got your point, and then made a different one.

[ippy]

Interesting comment and indicative of the voting demographics in 1975 and 2016.

There is a lot of guff talked suggesting that because in 2016 it was the young that voted predominantly to remain, and the old that voted predominantly to leave, that 1975 was the same. The inference being that those who were relatively young in 1975 voted to stay in the common market but changed their minds by 2016.

But analysis of the 1975 demographics doesn't back this up. In 1975 the least likely group to support being in the common market were the younger voters, while older voters (probably those who remembered and were affected by the war) voted heavily to join the common market.

So in fact those young anti-common market voters of 1975 became the old brexit voters of 2016 - they hadn't changed their minds at all - they were against in 1975 and remained against in 2016.

Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.

Regards ippy

[Rhiannon]

Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.

Regards ippy

How do you know that is what the majority voted for? It wasn't on the ballot paper.

[Gordon]

Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.

Regards ippy

I'm not sure that the gullible voting on the basis of the lies of the incompetent is a situation that should be welcomed. 

[wigginhall]

How do you know that is what the majority voted for? It wasn't on the ballot paper.

It's a reinterpretation.  It's also nonsense, as a complete break would mean ports and airports closed to EU traffic.

[ProfessorDavey]

How do you know that is what the majority voted for? It wasn't on the ballot paper.

Indeed - the only thing that needs to happen to 'fulfil the will of the people' as manifested in the referendum, is to leave the EU. That could be a Norway-like leaving or an uber-hard brexit. We cannot know exactly what type of brexit people voted for as that detail wasn't on the ballot paper.

You could, of course, allow us know whether there is a majority for a Norway-style brexit or an uber-hard brexit, for example, by putting the final deal to a confirmatory referendum. Then we'd know that the actual brexit on offer (not a myriad of hypothetical, all-things-to-all-people brexits) actually has majority support. But leavers who are so in thrall to the 'will of the people' in 2016 seem terribly unwilling to actually find out whether the actual brexit deal on offer is also supported as the 'will of the people'.

[jeremyp]

Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.

Regards ippy

The question was should we leave the EU. There was nothing on the ballot about the kind of relationship we should have afterwards, and that is the main reason why everything is such a shambles now.

The other point is that it was a democratic vote of the electorate in 2016. It’s two years later. A lot of old people have died since then and a lot of young people have reached 18. Are you confident that the result would go the same way if we had a democratic vote now?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.

Regards ippy

Millions of quid for Rees Mogg..........Spam for you.

[jeremyp]

Millions of quid for Rees Mogg..........Spam for you.

But for Ippy, that is a price worth paying so that his life can be run by British corporate interests rather than European corporate interests.

What's that you say about trade deals with the US? Well at least American corporate interests speak nearly the same language as us.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But for Ippy, that is a price worth paying so that his life can be run by British corporate interests rather than European corporate interests.

What's that you say about trade deals with the US? Well at least American corporate interests speak nearly the same language as us.

In normal times I may have expected the US to throw billions at the UK as some kind of latter day Marshall Aid to prevent us doing deals with er, not the US. But the Brexiteers have been confounded by the new trade policy.


All we are left with is the sorry but logical end of the relationship of fuhrerprincip introduced vaguely by Mr E Powell, promoted  by M Thatcher and the carry on brand of humour and now embodied in Rees Mogg.


It's not even Jam tomorrow but spam tomorrow.

[wigginhall]

I think for many, Brexit is an article of faith.  Hence, it is impervious to facts, statistics, rational arguments, etc.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think for many, Brexit is an article of faith.  Hence, it is impervious to facts, statistics, rational arguments, etc.

Yes I can almost hear Gammons in their late 50's going on about how we managed in the war and how good spam fritters were.

[Aruntraveller]

You go to far sir. Spam fritters are still wonderful!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We can't be far of declaration of a state of emergency to cover up how shit the government are at stockpiling.

[wigginhall]

I think the hard Brexit people are caught in two minds - stockpiling lets the EU know we are serious about no deal, but it might panic people.   The solution might be to say that the EU want to starve us into submission, especially the Irish.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think the hard Brexit people are caught in two minds - stockpiling lets the EU know we are serious about no deal, but it might panic people.   The solution might be to say that the EU want to starve us into submission, especially the Irish.

Why especially the irish? Are you talking about that Irishman Jacob Rees Mogg?


By this stage we should feel safe in the knowledge that America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are going to provide food, medicines and blood. I thought Farage was big mates with the president and Arron was friends with Russia.