Conservatism doesn't exist

[ippy]

And yet you are happy to insult:

I think it is time to remove those rose-tinted, 1950's spectacles that you have borrowed from a Stephen King novel and look at what is involved in leaving, and the very short timescale the country has to get things arranged in.

Clue for you here: WE AREN'T FUCKING SUCCEEDING.

Yes it would be an insult if it were not on the whole explaining things as they are.

Regards ippy

[ippy]

That won't impinge on many Brexit fans, as their position is based on faith, not reason.

Yes we all have our opinion in the same way as you do we've just come to a differing conclusion, it doesn't make us bad people whichever way we may have voted, your reasons for remain I'm sure are very real for you, had the original EEC stayed as it was I dare say we wouldn't be in the place we are now.

It's now a considerable wound to the U K and is now turning into quite a fought best left area of conversation even among friends, old friends even, whichever remain or leaver, you must have noticed.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

'Did you intend for there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?'

No.

How do you know for certain that we'll be having, food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs?

In what way is the forecast for Agamemnon you're giving me any better than any other forecast?

I never imagined that there would be any kind of seamless departure, but departure or leave won the day and that's what I'm expecting no matter how much it upsets the remainers, leave won the vote,  you can look on the bright side for yourself, just think of all the things you'll be able to blame on the leavers when we have left, no doubt everything will be blamed on the leavers probably the even the weather.

We're unlikely to agree on this one Rhiannon, we both think the other side on this one has got it half baked and wrong and that's unlikely to alter.

Regards ippy.

Your thinking reminds me of a bloke I used to work with who would spend pounds of his hard earned
On the fruit machine in the pub but would be happy with a win no matter if his losses far exceeded the
Amount won.

Of course he just used his own money.

There is no fucking bright side to this.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's now a considerable wound to the U K and is now turning into quite a fought best left area of conversation even among friends, old friends even, whichever remain or leaver, you must have noticed.

Regards ippy

The only silver lining of that is it belies the guffings of the insufferable Giles Frazier. The Bishop of Brexitter.

[Aruntraveller]

it doesn't make us bad people whichever way we may have voted,

It doesn't, but I would have thought pause for thought would have been given when you look at the people you are allied with.

During the referendum I was subjected to homophobic abuse on the Facebook platform for supporting remain - I think I even posted it here. The same happened to friends who were from ethnic backgrounds. There was a concerted, determined effort to intimidate people on the basis of whatever characteristic they may have. The fact that being gay had no influence on my decision didn't matter - they played the person not the ball.

And as the adage has it "not every leave supporter is racist, but every racist is a leave supporter."

[Gordon]

I think Wiggs hit the nail on the head when he noted that for Brexit enthusiasts it is now an article of faith - and we also see in that the zeal of the recently converted: for that is what they are.

There was no public clamour for exiting the EU prior to the last GE won by Cameron: the only clamour was from the lunatic fringe of the Tory party, and they had been clamouring for ages since I recall John Major described them as 'bastards' when he was PM. Cameron offered the referendum as a means to sideline said lunatic fringe but he never planned for the contingency that there were sufficient numbers of the gullible in certain parts of the UK (but not all parts of the UK) that would be susceptible to lies and misinformation.

The result is that the Tory party, which is the subject of this thread, has changed fundamentally in that the mentality of their lunatic fringe has now taken over the party to the extent that even a PM who wasn't pro-Brexit, and who no doubt realises that it is in reality a disastrous policy, is unable to stand up to them for fear of being accused of treachery and so she steers a course direct towards the iceberg while the frantic and constant reorganising of the deckchairs gives the false impression of purposeful activity.

Perhaps, even now, somebody might yet be able to get their hands on the tiller and change course.   

[wigginhall]

May's deal looks dead in the water now.  Some journalists are talking up EEA but the Ultras will nix that.  There is also some belief that the EU really don't want a chaotic Brexit, and will offer some kind of transition.  But the inmates have taken over the asylum, after all Ultras probably stand to make money out of no deal.  What else Is there?  Have we really spent the last two years moving towards chaos and stockpiling?

[ippy]

Your thinking reminds me of a bloke I used to work with who would spend pounds of his hard earned
On the fruit machine in the pub but would be happy with a win no matter if his losses far exceeded the
Amount won.

Of course he just used his own money.

There is no fucking bright side to this.

Yes Vlad, in your opinion.

Regards ippy.

[wigginhall]

That sounds a bit like the sunk cost fallacy, I've invested so much in this project, I can't stop now, even though I'm losing.   Often found among gamblers, ha ha.

[ippy]

It doesn't, but I would have thought pause for thought would have been given when you look at the people you are allied with.

During the referendum I was subjected to homophobic abuse on the Facebook platform for supporting remain - I think I even posted it here. The same happened to friends who were from ethnic backgrounds. There was a concerted, determined effort to intimidate people on the basis of whatever characteristic they may have. The fact that being gay had no influence on my decision didn't matter - they played the person not the ball.

And as the adage has it "not every leave supporter is racist, but every racist is a leave supporter."

I have no interest in any ones sexuality some you can't help noticing but that's all and in 1979 I adopted the first of me two black sons, my wife and I are so called white people.

I do think that the remainers are so frustrated that any of the slimmest pieces of anti-leavers propaganda they can find that's probably correct in a few cases, has been blown up to proportions that exaggerate anything the remainers wish to use against the leavers.

I dare say you would find something like a similar amount of things like homophobia etc among the remainers if you were bothered enough to look for it.

I have never had anyone try to intimidate me or have seen or read about this happening except here of course, nor would I want to get involved in the intimidating of anyone else.

Regards ippy

[ippy]

I think Wiggs hit the nail on the head when he noted that for Brexit enthusiasts it is now an article of faith - and we also see in that the zeal of the recently converted: for that is what they are.

There was no public clamour for exiting the EU prior to the last GE won by Cameron: the only clamour was from the lunatic fringe of the Tory party, and they had been clamouring for ages since I recall John Major described them as 'bastards' when he was PM. Cameron offered the referendum as a means to sideline said lunatic fringe but he never planned for the contingency that there were sufficient numbers of the gullible in certain parts of the UK (but not all parts of the UK) that would be susceptible to lies and misinformation.

The result is that the Tory party, which is the subject of this thread, has changed fundamentally in that the mentality of their lunatic fringe has now taken over the party to the extent that even a PM who wasn't pro-Brexit, and who no doubt realises that it is in reality a disastrous policy, is unable to stand up to them for fear of being accused of treachery and so she steers a course direct towards the iceberg while the frantic and constant reorganising of the deckchairs gives the false impression of purposeful activity.

Perhaps, even now, somebody might yet be able to get their hands on the tiller and change course.   

I see all leavers are lunatics, well yes that another point of view, you're entitled.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I see all leavers are lunatics, well yes that another point of view, you're entitled.

Regards ippy

How else can you describe endangering the health and food supply of yourself and your countrymen and still describe yourself as not only patriotic but a better patriot?

[wigginhall]

We were joking about a subsistence diet in Norfolk.  We could grow spuds and leeks, gather samphire at the coast, and fish for pike and zander in local rivers.  It is a joke, isn't it?

I see warnings about diabetes medicine, which keep for 3 months in the fridge, so can't be stockpiled.   Hard to believe this stuff, but it's the govt that are stockpiling, isn't it?

[jeremyp]

All in your opinion jp, I don't agree with you just as all of the others that decided that in their opinion they want to leave the E U, it's not rocket science.

The government is stockpiling supplies for christ's sake. This is not my opinion.

The wording of the referendum wasn't complicated, I must admit I would be as equally annoyed as you appear to be if the vote had gone the other way.

You might have been annoyed but you wouldn't be looking forward to shortages of food and drugs.

It's obvious, in hindsight, that the wording was too simple. There should have been a way for Leavers to specify which form of Brexit they did want.

I will keep doing everything I can to stop the so called soft brexit coming to fruition,

Why? There's no democratic mandate for a hard Brexit. Had the referendum asked what kind of Brexit people wanted, the soft option together with Remain would probably have an overwhelming majority.

By the way I dont see remainers as wolly headed moaners or thick I just think you're overall wrong so obviously I see leaving has more on the plus side than remaining, probably it's similar for you only visa versa.

Well I just think you are wrong and the evidence is on my side.

[Rhiannon]

Yes it would be an insult if it were not on the whole explaining things as they are.

Regards ippy

So you think people aren’t entitled to ‘moan’ about not being able to feed their kids, because they will lose their jobs, their friends? People aren’t entitled to moan because they can’t get life-saving medication? And for what? A point of principle you can’t even be bothered to explain.

[jeremyp]

when you look at the people you are allied with.

In the spirit of trying to keep the conversation slightly on topic, let's look at who Ippy is allied with, from the Tory Party.

We have Michael Gove who stabbed his leader in the back and stabbed his ally in the back and failed to step up himself.

We have David Davies who stabbed his leader in the back and abandoned his post.

We have Jacob Rees Mogg who wants to go back to the 60's (the 1860's) and who has now said it will be 50 years before we know if this has been worth it or not. He is also moving some of his money into Ireland.

We have Boris Johnson who stabbed two of his leaders in the back and abandoned his post. The morning after the Brexit vote, the expression on his face suggests that he had just shat himself. He never really wanted Brexit but is using it to further his domestic ambitions.

We have Nigel Farage whose strong commitment to leaving the EU doesn't go as far as refusing his MEP's salary (paid in Euros which means the tanking of Sterling is a pay rise for him).

These people want to repeal the European Human Rights laws and labour laws. Why is that do you think? They have not got the ordinary people of the UK's best interests at heart only their own ambition and greed.

[Rhiannon]

It’s the same smoke-and-mirrors tactics used by Trump.

[ippy]

The government is stockpiling supplies for christ's sake. This is not my opinion.
You might have been annoyed but you wouldn't be looking forward to shortages of food and drugs.

It's obvious, in hindsight, that the wording was too simple. There should have been a way for Leavers to specify which form of Brexit they did want.

Why? There's no democratic mandate for a hard Brexit. Had the referendum asked what kind of Brexit people wanted, the soft option together with Remain would probably have an overwhelming majority.
Well I just think you are wrong and the evidence is on my side.

Always good to hear the other side's case and I'm sure I referred to a 'so called' hard brexit which means we agree on that one specific point.

I have no idea why this stockpiling is going on and it doesn't surprise me you take a negative view on anything you think is a brexit area, we'll see in the end where the leave takes us just as you take a negative view I think the evidence I've seen and heard about leaving has more on the plus side than the other way around, we'll see.

I've no doubt we'll have years and years of blaming leaving the E U for everything from remainers and I have to be fair and admit if the vote had been visa versa, I'd more than likely do the same.

Regards ippy

[ippy]

In the spirit of trying to keep the conversation slightly on topic, let's look at who Ippy is allied with, from the Tory Party.

We have Michael Gove who stabbed his leader in the back and stabbed his ally in the back and failed to step up himself.

We have David Davies who stabbed his leader in the back and abandoned his post.

We have Jacob Rees Mogg who wants to go back to the 60's (the 1860's) and who has now said it will be 50 years before we know if this has been worth it or not. He is also moving some of his money into Ireland.

We have Boris Johnson who stabbed two of his leaders in the back and abandoned his post. The morning after the Brexit vote, the expression on his face suggests that he had just shat himself. He never really wanted Brexit but is using it to further his domestic ambitions.

We have Nigel Farage whose strong commitment to leaving the EU doesn't go as far as refusing his MEP's salary (paid in Euros which means the tanking of Sterling is a pay rise for him).

These people want to repeal the European Human Rights laws and labour laws. Why is that do you think? They have not got the ordinary people of the UK's best interests at heart only their own ambition and greed.

I felt sure that I didn't break any laws E U or U K when I voted for leave?

Regards ippy.

[Gordon]

I felt sure that I didn't break any laws E U or U K when I voted for leave?

Regards ippy.

As I suspect that history will show Brexit, if it happens, to be disastrous and Brexit supporters to be those whose gullibility and biases allowed them to believe lies, misinformation and no information and who are in denial that this suicidal policy will damage everyone affected by it. Much as I would like Brexit to be a precursor the the break-up of the UK, it gives me no pleasure to see the damage it will cause to everyone in the UK if it happens. 

When I listen to the nonsense spouted by Brexit enthusiasts it is akin to listening to Ward Bond advising us all to get the wagons in a circle and all will then be well - and it won't.

[wigginhall]

So you think people aren’t entitled to ‘moan’ about not being able to feed their kids, because they will lose their jobs, their friends? People aren’t entitled to moan because they can’t get life-saving medication? And for what? A point of principle you can’t even be bothered to explain.

It's very striking that fans of Brexit rarely explain what they want.  Well, ippy talks of a complete break, but this is unreal, so we close Dover to EU traffic?  I suppose the Ultras talk of WTO, but I wonder if they know what that involves, e.g. non-tariff barriers and non-discrimination rules.  I mean Davis looked completely out of his depth.  I think they think that we will crash out, barring an emergency transition.   A friend of mine joked that we might get UN emergency intervention, bringing food and medicine, not all that funny.

[ippy]

As I suspect that history will show Brexit, if it happens, to be disastrous and Brexit supporters to be those whose gullibility and biases allowed them to believe lies, misinformation and no information and who are in denial that this suicidal policy will damage everyone affected by it. Much as I would like Brexit to be a precursor the the break-up of the UK, it gives me no pleasure to see the damage it will cause to everyone in the UK if it happens. 

When I listen to the nonsense spouted by Brexit enthusiasts it is akin to listening to Ward Bond advising us all to get the wagons in a circle and all will then be well - and it won't.

Likewise in the opposite way the opposing way to leave is just a bad to me, but I only think of remainers as wrong.

Regards ippy.

[Rhiannon]

Likewise in the opposite way the opposing way to leave is just a bad to me, but I only think of remainers as wrong.

Regards ippy.

Because why? You still won't explain yourself.

[ippy]

Because why? You still won't explain yourself.

No point, neither of us will be argued around.

Regards ippy

[wigginhall]

Let's face it, the public were kept in the dark about the details of Brexit, partly because hardly anyone understood it, least of all the govt.  For example, it is probably impossible to have frictionless trade outside the single market, but May has kept up her fantasy that you could.  If the hard Brexit fans were honest about what they want, they would crash and burn.   Still, Rule Britannia, and long live ignorance and lies!