Conservatism doesn't exist

[wigginhall]

One incredible point about N. Ireland, is that it voted remain, yet the govt seem to listen to the DUP,  more than anyone, for obvious reasons.  I hope they are not stoking up trouble there.  What a way to run a whelk-stall.

[Rhiannon]

No point, neither of us will be argued around.

Regards ippy

I am not seeking to argue - what would the point of that even be? I am seeking to understand. At the moment it looks like you have no reason to put forward.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It could be that now it looks like a national disaster, Public Brexitteering is at an end....after all has anyone heard anything serious from Johnson, Davis, Mogg or Farage. The press are now pleading with us not to recreate the Scene of crime (a referendum) exposing their offence of bullshitting the public.


I seem to recall everyone had sympathy with the fuel protestors until it was realised how much life was disrupted.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

From the people who brought you Carry on up the Brexit

Theresa May stars in the remake of CRANK

After injected with Brexit by a break away group of UKIP known as ''their entire membership'', The Tories have to keep up their adrenaline levels other wise they will become remainer again.

To do this they arrange a non stop tour of Europe but even this fails to keep them going so they have to indulge in shafting the British people in public.


With Jason Statham as Jeremy Hunt. 

[Aruntraveller]

I have no interest in any ones sexuality some you can't help noticing but that's all and in 1979 I adopted the first of me two black sons, my wife and I are so called white people.

I do think that the remainers are so frustrated that any of the slimmest pieces of anti-leavers propaganda they can find that's probably correct in a few cases, has been blown up to proportions that exaggerate anything the remainers wish to use against the leavers.

I dare say you would find something like a similar amount of things like homophobia etc among the remainers if you were bothered enough to look for it.

I have never had anyone try to intimidate me or have seen or read about this happening except here of course, nor would I want to get involved in the intimidating of anyone else.

Regards ippy

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

My point was not about you. It was about some of the people who voted for Brexit and if you can't find it in your mind to ackowledge the truth about them, then there really is little point discussing this with you. But to put it bluntly you are in the bloc that voted with Britain First and all the other nasty, ugly racist groups that are out there.

My point sucvinctly put is, if you sleep with dogs you will catch fleas.

[jeremyp]

I have no idea why this stockpiling is going on

It's pretty basic. If there's a no deal Brexit, the borders immediately become hard borders with customs checks and tariffs (possibly) on all goods in transit. Also certain agreements that we depend on for the smooth flow of goods become void. For example, in a no deal Brexit, British driving licences will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. What will the lorry divers do? British air worthiness certificates will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. Therefore no flights.

The problems of things like driving licences and aircraft are easy to resolve, but nobody has done anything about them yet, and time is running out. The problem of customs inspections is much harder to resolve because it will need a lot of new infrastructure and staff and they really needed to plan this about five years ago for us to be ready in March next year.

and it doesn't surprise me you take a negative view on anything you think is a brexit area, we'll see in the end where the leave takes us just as you take a negative view I think the evidence I've seen and heard about leaving has more on the plus side than the other way around, we'll see.

The Remoaners[sic] have been explaining why we have a negative view since before the referendum. We've listed the issues and explained why we think they are issues. We've pointed to the evidence. In response, you are just hand waving. There's no substance to your posts, they all come down to "you're really negative and I think it's going to be fine". Well it's not going to be fine.

[ippy]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

My point was not about you. It was about some of the people who voted for Brexit and if you can't find it in your mind to ackowledge the truth about them, then there really is little point discussing this with you. But to put it bluntly you are in the bloc that voted with Britain First and all the other nasty, ugly racist groups that are out there.

My point sucvinctly put is, if you sleep with dogs you will catch fleas.

Especially with reference to the last line of your post, I find the whole of your mailing on this subject out of character, measured against the usual approach you take on most other subjects?

Regards ippy

[ippy]

It's pretty basic. If there's a no deal Brexit, the borders immediately become hard borders with customs checks and tariffs (possibly) on all goods in transit. Also certain agreements that we depend on for the smooth flow of goods become void. For example, in a no deal Brexit, British driving licences will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. What will the lorry divers do? British air worthiness certificates will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. Therefore no flights.

The problems of things like driving licences and aircraft are easy to resolve, but nobody has done anything about them yet, and time is running out. The problem of customs inspections is much harder to resolve because it will need a lot of new infrastructure and staff and they really needed to plan this about five years ago for us to be ready in March next year.

The Remoaners[sic] have been explaining why we have a negative view since before the referendum. We've listed the issues and explained why we think they are issues. We've pointed to the evidence. In response, you are just hand waving. There's no substance to your posts, they all come down to "you're really negative and I think it's going to be fine". Well it's not going to be fine.

When we leave the effectively the united states of europe, there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us, I understand why remainers it seems want to hear these sorts of stories in some sort of I told you so responce, it would more than likely be the same if the vote had been visa versa, yes when I think about it I would be furious.

I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.

I'm sorry if you don't like it because I wont argue here but that's only because it would be fruitless, I wont be budging from my leaving opinion just the same as you with your remaining.

Regards ippy

[Aruntraveller]

Especially with reference to the last line of your post, I find the whole of your mailing on this subject out of character, measured against the usual approach you take on most other subjects?

Regards ippy

Well maybe that's because I have not seen such a threat to my way of life thus far in my life. I'm feeling threatened on a number of issues: health, defence, security, energy, rights for working people.

You have a mantra of everything will turn out alright. I have no such faith in the people in charge to even begin to make this anywhere approaching OK.

[Rhiannon]

When we leave the effectively the united states of europe, there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us, I understand why remainers it seems want to hear these sorts of stories in some sort of I told you so responce, it would more than likely be the same if the vote had been visa versa, yes when I think about it I would be furious.

I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.

I'm sorry if you don't like it because I wont argue here but that's only because it would be fruitless, I wont be budging from my leaving opinion just the same as you with your remaining.

Regards ippy

You may find people have more respect for your opinion if you said why you voted to leave 'the united states of Europe', but as you refuse to do so we can only conclude that it was 'because I felt like it'.

[ippy]

You may find people have more respect for your opinion if you said why you voted to leave 'the united states of Europe', but as you refuse to do so we can only conclude that it was 'because I felt like it'.

I explained my P O V in my post 82 on this thread Rhiannon, it looks like you may have missed it.

Regards ippy

[Rhiannon]

I explained my P O V in my post 82 on this thread Rhiannon, it looks like you may have missed it.

Regards ippy

No, it doesn't explain why you voted the way that you did.

[ippy]

Well maybe that's because I have not seen such a threat to my way of life thus far in my life. I'm feeling threatened on a number of issues: health, defence, security, energy, rights for working people.

You have a mantra of everything will turn out alright. I have no such faith in the people in charge to even begin to make this anywhere approaching OK.

It doesn't take a brain as fluidly perceptual as Einstine to understand that the E U H Q can't be seen to give the U K a nice sunny Sunday easy drive out of their charge via the scenic root.

We'll never agree on this one but say you or anyone else looks at any given problem, sometimes it's a good idea to sit down and write a list with two columns, for and against.

The EU leave/remain isn't an easy one, I've no reason to plant nasturtiums on any of your thought processes, my two columns I think well thought out look at all of the various arguments isn't the same as your, I'm sure, well thought out too list of for and against and as I keep on saying I really think it's time we learned that this state of disagreement isn't going to change.

Is there anything we could say to each other that would turn either one of us? I wont be changing my mind just as no doubt you wont be changing yours.

With such strong points of view held all over the U K the best that could be done in my view was dealt with.

Regards ippy.

[ippy]

No, it doesn't explain why you voted the way that you did.

In your opinion.

Regards ippy.

[Robbie]

You're right (Rhiannon), the post doesn't explain why ippy voted to leave. I don't think many people find their reasons easy to explain, it was a sort of gut reaction. Brexit will not have too much of an unfavourable effect on those on pension with mortgage paid up but will affect their children and grandchildren.

After the disastrous (imo) and unexpected result of the referendum I felt sure it would be reversed, there would be another referendum or an about turn. Now I'm genuinely worried, not for myself but for younger people who are likely to face great difficulties in the not too distant future - which is dreadful & how long will it last? Life isn't all that easy for many now, it's downright cruel to make it worse.

Sorry, haven't added much to the discussion but I feel somewhat wound up about it all. (Yes I voted Remain.)

[jeremyp]

Especially with reference to the last line of your post, I find the whole of your mailing on this subject out of character, measured against the usual approach you take on most other subjects?

Regards ippy

More handwaving. Instead of addressing the points you just claim it is "out of character" for the rest offs to come up with inconvenient truths.

[jeremyp]

When we leave the effectively the united states of europe,

That's a falsehood. The EU is not a united states of Europe. As a member of the EU, the UK (ironically a set of united states) has a veto over any moves to make the EU a united states. Anyway, what's so bad about the concept?

there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us, I understand why remainers it seems want to hear these sorts of stories in some sort of I told you so responce, it would more than likely be the same if the vote had been visa versa, yes when I think about it I would be furious.

But if the vote had gone the other way, there would be no disruption, temporary or otherwise. Also, we wouldn't have spent the last two years doing nothing but tearing each other apart. Nothing would have changed so you would be no more furious now than you were before the vote was announced.

I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.

We haven't heard any of your arguments. You just keep saying "I am right".

I'm sorry if you don't like it because I wont argue here but that's only because it would be fruitless, I wont be budging from my leaving opinion just the same as you with your remaining.

Here's my main problem. You don't put up any arguments. WSe are in the midst of chaos and all you keep saying is "I am right. You lot should stop moaning". Please take an objective look at what Brexit has done to our country.

[wigginhall]

Very few fans of Brexit are able to give concrete explanations.   As jeremy said, lots of handwaving.  And now, incredibly, after two years, few of them are able to give any more detail, except mumbling something about WTO.   Neither Davis or Johnson have given any further explanations after their resignations.   I remember Suez, and this is about as bonkers, and remember Suez was based on a gigantic lie.

[ippy]

More handwaving. Instead of addressing the points you just claim it is "out of character" for the rest offs to come up with inconvenient truths.

Neither of us will be changing our minds about how we voted in the Ref, so I see it as completely pointless arguing about the various aspects of in or out.

I probably agree with most of the people you see as damn near holding views about the EU as poisonous, so it is rather obvious any exchange I'm sure would turn in ways I don't wish to go.

The last paragraph is telling you my thoughts as far I will be going into how I feel about the EU.

I would feel something like bashing remainers if we had lost the vote, I understand a little of how it must feel for remainers and that's about it; perhaps find someone else to bash, metaphorically.

Regards ippy

[Stranger]

I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.

What arguments? Why on earth is leaving the EU worth the economic cost (even Rees-Mogg is saying it might be 50 years before we see any benefit), job losses, and the inevitable disruption (even if we ignore the increasingly likely consequences of having no deal)?

What is so terrible about the EU or even a United States of Europe?

[ippy]

You're right (Rhiannon), the post doesn't explain why ippy voted to leave. I don't think many people find their reasons easy to explain, it was a sort of gut reaction. Brexit will not have too much of an unfavourable effect on those on pension with mortgage paid up but will affect their children and grandchildren.

After the disastrous (imo) and unexpected result of the referendum I felt sure it would be reversed, there would be another referendum or an about turn. Now I'm genuinely worried, not for myself but for younger people who are likely to face great difficulties in the not too distant future - which is dreadful & how long will it last? Life isn't all that easy for many now, it's downright cruel to make it worse.

Sorry, haven't added much to the discussion but I feel somewhat wound up about it all. (Yes I voted Remain.)

It's a bit like two substantial brick and perhaps reinforced concrete standpoints this in out of the EU Rob, it wouldn't matter whatever I said about my point of view on this it'd be similar to a head on crash, I would be furious had we lost the vote I am sorry about how you feel not the result of the vote.

We'll I'm sure differ on this till the day we die, the ref annoying as it is for your side of the arguments really was the only way as far as I'm concerned.

Oh yes, I won't be arguing about whether we should of had a ref or not either, so don't bother to bring that up with me, just in case anyone was thinking of that one, this comment isn't so much directed at you Rob.

Regards ippy

[wigginhall]

On stockpiling, I was chatting to a guy who ordered £3000 worth of catfood on Amazon, and they refused the order, as they thought he was reselling it.    Wot a laaf.  So remember with spam, just a few tins at a time, and above all, be like dad, keep mum!

[Aruntraveller]

It's a bit like two substantial brick and perhaps reinforced concrete standpoints this in out of the EU Rob, it wouldn't matter whatever I said about my point of view on this it'd be similar to a head on crash, I would be furious had we lost the vote I am sorry about how you feel not the result of the vote.

We'll I'm sure differ on this till the day we die, the ref annoying as it is for your side of the arguments really was the only way as far as I'm concerned.

Oh yes, I won't be arguing about whether we should of had a ref or not either, so don't bother to bring that up with me, just in case anyone was thinking of that one, this comment isn't so much directed at you Rob.

Regards ippy

And again with the avoidance.

[Robbie]

Unintelligible too.

We must go on, working, playing and all that, regardless of what happens. It would be bad to be too bogged down with worries - yet the worry is still there even if we shelve it for a while.

Stockpiling? What about people who don't have a garage or even a spare cupboard, never mind a little patch to grow fruit and veg.

I've read about people who are saving for a house deposit and now intend to sit on their money because they think house prices will fall dramatically. We've seen that before, it's lovely for the buyers and fine for those staying put but could be catastrophic for those selling.

[wigginhall]

You will only get avoidance with Brexit fans.   Reason is, they haven't a clue what it involves.   Ask them about non-discrimination rules under WTO,  and have a laugh.

I don't think the govt idea is for households to stockpile, but food companies.  But they probably can't,  because many have just-in-time production lines.  However, no doubt many individuals will start.  Do we make our own bog-rolls?