The United States of Europe

[jeremyp]

Mentioned by Ippy on another thread. The EU is not a federation, at least not yet, but why would it be such a bad idea as a long term goal?

[Aruntraveller]

Mentioned by Ippy on another thread. The EU is not a federation, at least not yet, but why would it be such a bad idea as a long term goal?

Because pig-headed stupid nationalism isn't quite as dead as one would have hoped?

[Robbie]

Because pig-headed stupid nationalism isn't quite as dead as one would have hoped?

Too right!

Not to mention xenophobia and all that jazz.

[wigginhall]

The interesting thing is that the world seems to be dividing into large trading blocs, USA, China, EU, but plucky little England will be OK, ha ha.

[jeremyp]

Because pig-headed stupid nationalism isn't quite as dead as one would have hoped?

That isn't really a reason not to do it though, only a hurdle along the way.

[Stranger]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.” - Albert Eisenstein

Who's this Albert Eisenstein?

[ippy]

Mentioned by Ippy on another thread. The EU is not a federation, at least not yet, but why would it be such a bad idea as a long term goal?

Yes I did mention the U S E, I wrote:

 'When we leave the effectively the united states of Europe, there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us',

Regards ippy

[jeremyp]

Yes I did mention the U S E, I wrote:

 'When we leave the effectively the united states of Europe, there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us',

Regards ippy

Sorry Ippy, I don’t want this to be another Brexit thread, I want it to be a discussion around the question of why the USE would be a good or bad idea.

[Aruntraveller]

Who's this Albert Eisenstein?

I'd like to say that you have won first prize (which is btw, a week on Love Island with Vlad) for being the first to spot my deliberate mistake. Alas this is not the case. Either a typo or a cut and paste without checking. Age and eyesight are my only excuses.

[Udayana]

Mentioned by Ippy on another thread. The EU is not a federation, at least not yet, but why would it be such a bad idea as a long term goal?

It is a great idea, but to get there "I wouldn't start from here".

A confidence in properly constituted democratic institutions and subsidiarity is essential, and the EU does not meet the requirements for such.

In fact, it seems we are seeing an upsurge in nationalism in Europe and worldwide,

A nation is a story, writers (or weavers) should get busy. 

[ad_orientem]

Mentioned by Ippy on another thread. The EU is not a federation, at least not yet, but why would it be such a bad idea as a long term goal?

Because why would anyone want their country run by mainly foreign politicians who have other countries interests as their priority? And little countries get fucked.

[jeremyp]

Because why would anyone want their country run by mainly foreign politicians who have other countries interests as their priority? And little countries get fucked.

But that is an irrational reason. My country is run by mainly people who do not come from my home town and who have other towns' interests (or even their own interests) as a priority.

In a United States of Europe, little countries wouldn't get fucked because it would no longer be a competition between states to get the best stuff any more than that there are competitions between Berkshire and Devon to get the best stuff.

[ad_orientem]

How's that irrational? It's quite reasonable to argue, for instance, that an Englishman would rather be ruled by an Englishman than a German because he's more likely to want what's best for Englishmen.

[jeremyp]

How's that irrational? It's quite reasonable to argue, for instance, that an Englishman would rather be ruled by an Englishman than a German because he's more likely to want what's best for Englishmen.

It's irrational because , taken too extremes it argues that we each need to be in control of our own one man country.

t's quite reasonable to argue, for instance, that an Englishman would rather be ruled by an Englishman than a German because he's more likely to want what's best for Englishmen.

No, that is an irrational point of view (for the Englishman). There's no reason to suspect an Englishman is better at ruling the UK than a German would be. Compare Theresa May (or David Cameron or Jeremy Corbyn) and Angela Merkle: I really envy the Germans.

Secondly, England is not an autonomous state and has frequently been ruled by Scots or Welshmen. Nobody criticised Gordon Brown on the grounds that he was a Scot or David Lloyd George because he was Welsh. People in Yorkshire do not object to Theresa May because she is not from that fair county but because she is fucking useless.

[ad_orientem]

Then where do stand with regards to say Scottish or Catalonian independence? Do you view all such things with disdain? Personally I oppose the trend towards centralisation and homogeny. It's bad for the people, with power going further away into an ever smaller group of elites who serve themselves.

[Udayana]

Then where do stand with regards to say Scottish or Catalonian independence? Do you view all such things with disdain?

My own view is that these are profoundly misconceived.

Personally I oppose the trend towards centralisation and homogeny. It's bad for the people, with power going further away into an ever smaller group of elites who serve themselves.

Of-course. That is why why democratic systems with subsidiarity are needed. Decisions must be made at the level closest to the people affected by them. However we are facing issues at continental and global levels that will not be solved by any number of agreements between small blocks.   

[Dicky Underpants]

I'd like to say that you have won first prize (which is btw, a week on Love Island with Vlad) for being the first to spot my deliberate mistake. Alas this is not the case. Either a typo or a cut and paste without checking. Age and eyesight are my only excuses.

Are you a fan of Die Fledermaus?

[Aruntraveller]

Are you a fan of Die Fledermaus?

I knew the music but not the characters. I have just gone to Wiki to decipher your reference. Learning every day!